OPEN FORUM

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3,996 thoughts on “OPEN FORUM

  1. mr.heathcliff

    “They both used to eat”

    The one who was dependant on food and oxygen cannot be the authour of food and his own breath.

    This is the message of the prophets

    Liked by 2 people

  2. XYZ

    What are your thoughts on Bart Ehrman’s “Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife”? I find it very hard to reconcile with the Islamic narrative. The absence of Heaven and Hell in the Hebrew Bible contradicts the Islamic claim of a singular religion preached from the time of Abraham that was later corrupted. For such a core doctrine to be omitted from all the books of the Hebrew Bible written by various authors across hundreds of years seems impossibly unlikely. Also according to Ehrman, Jesus did not believe in an eternal Hell but instead in annihilationism.

    Like

      1. So I took some time and skimmed through Ehrman’s arguments coz I was curious about his claim about Jesus and hell…. loads of assumptions in there…like somehow he assumes Matt 25:45 is talking about annihilation when in other places Jesus mentions some very specific details about suffering in the afterlife plus he ignores the contextual usage of the greek vis a vis the heavenly afterlife
        And he did believe in heaven didn’t he…
        As for the old testament, as everyone knows it does affirm an afterlife tho Ehrman is correct that we find no mention whatsoever of heaven or hell…from a Muslim perspective, those books have a shady history spanning over only a minuscule line compared to thousands of years of Jewish history so whatever it edifies betokens nothing much….
        It’s possible the Jews may have believed in heaven and hell thousands of years afore those books and with time their teachings, edifications and interpretations of their oral traditions transmuted i.e at one point they may have gone through a split such as something similar to Pharisees vs Sadducees who had differences in regards to afterlife too….so yeah….not really important….

        Like

    1. stewjo004

      @XYZ

      1. “What are your thoughts on Bart Ehrman… I find it very hard to reconcile with the Islamic narrative…”

      First point is Ehrman is not receiving revelation. All he did was put in laymen’s terms issues their scholars have known about their text for over 200 years. As Allah says he like all kuffar makes his opinions about Jesus(as) out of guesses and assumptions of what he arbitrarly agrees is authentic versus what is not. For example, there are about NINE major views of who the historical Jesus(as) was and what he taught not just Ehrman’s one position.

      http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

      So while Ehrman is good at showing issues with the their text he is not some all knowing authority.

      “The absence of Heaven and Hell in the Hebrew Bible contradicts the Islamic claim of a singular religion preached from the time of Abraham that was later corrupted. For such a core doctrine to be omitted from all the books of the Hebrew Bible written by various authors across hundreds of years seems impossibly unlikely.”

      Based on what…the completely abridged book written by anomous heretics? Quoting from Dr. Joel Hoffman in his book “The Bible’s Cutting Room Floor” states (emphasis mine):

      “The Bible you usually read is the ABRIDGED version. Its contents were CULLED from a much LARGER SELECTION OF HOLY SCRIPTURES when new realities forced religious leaders to discard some of their most cherished and sacred books, resulting in what we now call the Bible. Some writings were left out for political or theological reasons, others simply because of the physical restrictions of ancient bookmaking technology. At times, the compilers of the Bible skipped information that they assumed everyone knew. Some passages were even omitted by accident. For these reasons and more, your Bible doesn’t give you a complete picture. […]Underlying all of these differences is the simple fact that there used to be lots of holy writings, and different groups of people compiled different collections of them to form a single book.”

      So Ehrman has went on a tirade about what Jesus(as) and others believed when we don’t even have the majority of the texts let alone the random forgeries in there. As much as that was sufficient, furthermore neither the Tawrat nor Injeel are “the Bible”. Too long to get in it right now but short and sweet these are revelations given to Jesus(as) and Moses(as) not the time they got it. The “Bible” is basically a glorified hadith book filled with weak and forged narrations so you can take it all with the lowest of grains of salt.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. mr.heathcliff

        Stew remember the guy you addressed on yourphariseefriend? The guy is back :

        I ask them, ” How many creators are there or can there be?” off coarse they answer “one.”

        This will show how ignorant this cup cake is, there are MANY creators, God is the best of them .

        “I ask “can God share his creator-ness with another?” “no, because creating is not just what God does, its what he is, IE he is the “be-er” of all possible existence, ”

        The quran never says like pagan texts that power is “SHARED” with creation

        “creator is one of his names, but that indicates its his essential characteristic.” ”

        God is creator , has power over everything, is perfect in power, is ruler, wills things into existence.

        “I point out to them that Jesus in the Quran is described as creating life from non living matter,”

        1. Thats because u r a pagan who imposes on the quran your pagan thoughts.

        In the quran, God saying “be” is what gives life.

        The word “akluku” and “anfakhu” can be used for other than God

        The word “kun” cannot be used for other than God

        Gods permission for things to exist is tied with His will,

        so jesus blowing or SHAPING something is no different then the giant ball of light giving its light by gods permission which is tied to gods will. U cannot say god does not will what he permits.

        ” something only God does, that only God can do.”

        “Ahsanu khalikeen”

        Other than God make things.

        “They will say “well, he does it by God’s leave,” ignoring that their own previous statements and beliefs/philosophy about how God properly works would make that sentiment impossible.”

        This is because u r ignorant of quranic perspective.

        “That is why I tell them its a bit hypocritical for them in particular to call the Christians morons for Christian belief in a divine Jesus.”

        No muslim believes that God shares His powers with created things.

        Like

      2. mr.heathcliff

        Here is the cup cake making t
        Up the same nonsense:

        I ask them, ” How many creators are there or can there be?” off coarse they answer “one.” I ask “can God share his creator-ness with another?” “no, because creating is not just what God does, its what he is, IE he is the “be-er” of all possible existence, creator is one of his names, but that indicates its his essential characteristic.” IE God cannot do the impossible, such as make a second God.

        I point out to them that Jesus in the Quran is described as creating life from non living matter, something only God does, that only God can do.

        They will say “well, he does it by God’s leave,” ignoring that their own previous statements and beliefs/philosophy about how God properly works would make that sentiment impossible.

        That is why I tell them its a bit hypocritical for them in particular to call the Christians morons for Christian belief in a divine Jesus.

        https://judaismresources.net/2022/01/05/test-of-love-2/#comment-163978

        Like

      3. XYZ

        So your claim is that the full, unabridged Bible could possibly contain the doctrine of Heaven and Hell? f the doctrine had really existed, at some point one of the authors, authors dispersed across centuries, would have made at least a passing reference to it. We don’t need all the texts to to come to the conclusion that the probability of its existence amongst the Israelites at that time was astronomically low.
        Why do we see descriptions of the afterlife in the Hebrew Bible that gravely contradict the Islamic view? Sheol is quite distant from the Islamic afterlife.
        In the book you cite, Hoffman states in Chapter 8 that to the people of the time, the Bible was a “representative sample of a larger set of favourite texts”. Can we conclude from Hoffman’s statement that the unabridged Bible would likely not contain mention of the Islamic afterlife, since the Bible we have is a “representative sample”?
        The word “jahannam” is derived from the Valley of (the son of) Hinnom, Hebrew “gei-(ben)-Hinnom”, a place in Jerusalem that the Israelites saw as a desecrated place of slaughter as children were burnt there as offerings to pagan deities. It first became a place of divine punishment in the apocryphal 1 Enoch, two centuries before Jesus. Why does the Quran use this word with very human origins, evolving from a cursed valley outside Jerusalem to the otherworldly place of punishment depicted later on in Jewish and Christian literature? Being the verbatim Word of God, the Quran chooses every word deliberately and with the utmost precision. What did God mean by identifying Hell with the Valley of Hinnom? Is God putting His stamp of approval on centuries of Jewish and Christian embellishments of a valley outside Jerusalem?

        For centuries, Israelites were totally ignorant of the doctrine of Heaven and Hell. Why did the prophets sent to them not remind them of what they had somehow forgotten? Why did these prophets not correct the rampant corruption of holy scripture? They did manage to preserve a substantial portion of the stories of Biblical figures that the Quran takes as historical fact (“preserved” according to the Islamic point of view), so why was this fundamental doctrine not preserved? For Heaven and Hell to have originally been in the Hebrew Bible but intentionally taken out later would require a conspiracy of ahem, Biblical proportions.

        Like

      4. @ XYZ

        1. “So your claim is that the full, unabridged Bible could possibly contain the doctrine of Heaven and Hell?”

        Who knows there is no text to look at to say one way or the other. The ones making the claim “it doesn’t exist” have to prove that. And the best they have can be broken down as:

        “Well this text (the Bible) that we have no existence for until over a thousand years after its author’s (Moses’s) death, has two major transmission breaks where they straight up lost it as per their own admission, that we know for a fact has been altered and grabbed from larger texts that didn’t survive due to purposeful alterations, lack of bookmaking technology, the afterlife straight up doesn’t even speak about and we have no idea who wrote it doesn’t say something. Therefore we can conclude it doesn’t exist” is a straight-up retarded argument. I have no surviving writings from my great, great, great, great, great grandfather and nobody ever mentioned him therefore he must not exist either.

        2. “…if the doctrine had really existed, at some point one of the authors, authors dispersed across centuries, would have made at least a passing reference to it. We don’t need all the texts to to come to the conclusion that the probability of its existence amongst the Israelites at that time was astronomically low.’

        Do you mean like how they mention the afterlife all throughout the text in what we have now? :/

        3. “Why do we see descriptions of the afterlife in the Hebrew Bible that gravely contradict the Islamic view? Sheol is quite distant from the Islamic afterlife.”

        For one we don’t really see any descriptions at all and because…the Jewish Soferim the only dudes who could even read their texts to begin with, were a bunch of corrupt dudes who stole from the pagan religions around them said this was from God and just made sh!t up as they went along? (*cough* Book of Esther *cough* Darius the Mede* cough* whew excuse me)

        4. In the book you cite, Hoffman states in Chapter 8 that to the people of the time, the Bible was a “representative sample of a larger set of favourite texts”. Can we conclude from Hoffman’s statement that the unabridged Bible would likely not contain mention of the Islamic afterlife, since the Bible we have is a “representative sample”?

        Lol no? FAVORITE is the keyword in your last sentence i.e we all like this story let’s talk about it again. For example, if all copies of the Quran were to be destroyed and all hafiz died we would probably be able to still reconstruct Juz Amma and Fatiha as they are a common favorite that is recited from every day. But we just lost all of our law systems as off the top of my head there is no references in Juz Amma. So now imagine some jack@$$e$ almost three thousand years later come and say:

        “Well there are no surviving mentions of inheritance and alcohol prohibition in our surving Quran (as they’re not aware this is only a single juz of it) so we can conclude the early Muslim community didn’t believe in it either.” Sounds retarded right? I agree.

        5. “The word “jahannam” is derived from the Valley of (the son of) Hinnom, Hebrew “gei-(ben)-Hinnom”, a place in Jerusalem that the Israelites saw as a desecrated place of slaughter as children…” (Blah,blah,blah)

        Thank you for proving my point on how kuffar all make assumptions with no evidence. You assumed that is where “Jahannam” derives from when it’s actually a Persian word for “torture chamber” (“Jahnam”) (26:44)

        https://muslimcentral.com/nouman-ali-khan-098-bayyinah-b/

        So whoever you read from to say what you said went: “Dur, this word kinds sounds like this word (even though the word is used in Mecca before there was even Jewish contact) so it must mean that dur) This is why we don’t take kuffar scholarship seriously.

        6. “For centuries, Israelites were totally ignorant of the doctrine of Heaven and Hell.”

        You assume.

        7. “Why did the prophets sent to them not remind them of what they had somehow forgotten?”

        You assume.

        8. “Why did these prophets not correct the rampant corruption of holy scripture?”

        You assume. Also even in their surviving texts, they have the prophet Jeremiah(as) telling them they corrupted the Torah:

        “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the (Torah) of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (Jeremiah 8:8)

        9. “They did manage to preserve a substantial portion of the stories of Biblical figures that the Quran takes as historical fact (“preserved” according to the Islamic point of view), so why was this fundamental doctrine not preserved?”

        No, they didn’t lol? Stories are completely different. Please see my point regarding “dur and words”

        10. “For Heaven and Hell to have originally been in the Hebrew Bible but intentionally taken out later would require a conspiracy of ahem, Biblical proportions.”

        To begin just stop with the lame puns. Next, who said it was deliberate? There is a multitude of ways off the top of my head:

        A. Lost the actual revelation they had from Moses (as) for some odd reason and then paraded a new text they made up around as that revelation. The actual revelations were oral traditions that were written only to supplement but later followers got weak in memory or laziness and thus lost stuff.
        B. They didn’t care about the afterlife so they didn’t record it (which is fair considering they don’t mention it at all even in their current fanfiction and the few minute descriptions we have from the “various authors” that your argument is based around don’t even agree on it and many Jews TO THIS DAY still don’t care about it)
        C. Bookmaking technology was limited and so many parts were lost due to human laziness.
        D. As they were making up their stuff as they went along stuff got deleted because it clashed and nobody wanted to admit they were wrong or they thought the made-up stuff was right and so they let authentic stuff go thinking it was made up.

        All it takes to show how quickly something can go south is looking at Early Christianity or Islam. Imagine the Gnostics or the Sabaʾiyya sects became dominant deleted a bunch of stuff and people having only their first works a thousand+ years later argued about what those early communities believed? We would be looking at completely different religions today and they popped up 30 years or less after their prophets.

        In conclusion kuffar are retarded and that’s why they’re fuel for Hell. Any questions, comments or concerns so far?

        Like

      5. stewjo004

        @ XYZ

        Also, final point on the “Jahannam” point even if we went with that the word isn’t Persian (even though considering Hell’s other frequent name in the Quran “Jaheem” is also Persian I see no reason it’s not) and it is the valley etc…that doesn’t just “put a stamp on a very human word blah, blah, blah” it would be what we call a “loan word” in language. For example, in English, we use the word “Hell” when translating “Jahannam” that doesn’t mean we English speakers think of Hel’s domain from Norse mythology when we use it even though that’s its origins. In our language, we adopted this word as a description of a place of punishment in the afterlife and everyone understands that. This also happens with other languages as well because they evolve and i could easily argue that was the case here.

        Like

  3. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh,

    Guys, I intend to raise an anti-terror organization which I call it “Al Islamiyyah Waal Jamaah” which is an anti-terror organization that focuses on reviving and implementing the Sunnah of Prophet and Shariah of allah correctly, whole and fully.

    And I wish to wipe out ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas and Al Hazimiyyah.

    My questions are:

    1. Is it permitted or prohibited for me to ask Allah Almighty To assure me that anti-terror organizations will keep on appearing until the Day of Judgement?
    2. Will their good deeds fall back on me after my death?
    3. Will this be true Jihad?
    4. If I will die, I’ll be true martyr of Islam?

    Jazak Allah Khair

    Like

      1. stewjo004

        @ Mr. Heathcliff

        I’m having a hard time following their logic. Jesus(as) performs a miracle involving creating a living thing out of a nonliving thing with God’s permission as the Quran clearly states and they are claiming this is “sharing power”? Okay… Moses (as) and the staff becoming a snake their mythology regarding golems… Anyways moving on…

        Don’t some of them like Kabbalists believe that the angels share some of God’s powers like Metatron?

        Liked by 1 person

      2. mr.heathcliff

        Its not the yahood its that idiot ex-krister “concerned reader”

        the moron thinks that isa shaping and blowing into a bird inplies Allah DELEGATED His powers to another, but we know that the Quran says that saying “be” is never delegated to another.

        Allah even says He is the best of creators which implies noun of magnification and superlative

        Like

      3. mr.heathcliff

        Ofcourse when this moron is making an argument, he needs to assume

        1. Occassionalism

        Or

        2. Concurrentism

        3. God is not involved

        1=Allah is the cause of.everything

        2. Allah is not the cause of everything, for example, the sun has its own ability to give light as a second dependant cause . Allah = primary cause. Creation = secondary dependant cause

        3. God delegated His powers to other than He

        so the mushrik says “Other than Allah is creating” without informing the people UNDER which assumption he is assuming ? 1 , 2 or 3 ?

        Like

      4. stewjo004

        @ Mr. Heathcliff

        The first point is we can say he’s officially a pagan as that is what they believe that the high/sky god delegated authority to other ones. Next, no need to even get into this fancy philosophical mumbo jumbo as it doesn’t defeat my original point. Simple, Jesus performs his miracles through God’s permission (I’ll use this as opposed to “leave” as it paints a better picture) EVERY prophet does their miracles by God’s permission sothere’s nothing unique here which is the entore verse’s point which is why it keeps emphasizing it. If he wants to continue:

        What else in the Quran is done by God’s permission besides Jesus’s miracles?

        1. Gabriel
        So tell them: “Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, who by God’s Permission, has brought this down onto your heart…(2:97)

        2. Armies
        “When Saul crossed the river along with the faithful who were with him, they cried: “We have no hope this day against Goliath and his armies.” Those who knew that they would one day meet their Lord said: “How many times have few overcome many by God’s will? God is with those who are patient and persevere!”…” (2:249)

        3. Dying
        “No soul can ever die except by God’s permission at a deadline already written…” (3:145)

        4. Faith
        “No one will believe except by God’s permission, He makes filth settle on those who do not use their intellect.” (10:100)

        “Then I gave to My chosen servants, the Scripture as an inheritance. Some of them did themselves wrong, some stayed in between, and some by God’s permission were first and foremost in doing good and that is no doubt the greatest favor.” (35:32)

        Okay so now we have a “base” of an author’s work. Does anyone want to argue that a soul is delegated authority to die? Makes no sense. What about faith? Nope. Armies are given delegation. So yeah that argument is bad and shows the hidden pagan thoughts harbored behind the guise of monotheism.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. XYZ

    Before any surah in the Quran is read, “‘audhoobillahi min ash-Shaytan ar-Rajeem” is recited, and yet Satan as later understood by Christians and Muslims is not present in the Hebrew Bible. Did the Israelites go for centuries not knowing who their greatest enemy was?

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      @ YKz

      Sure if you ignore the Book of Job and Jewish oral traditions. (You can also add the oral traditions to my heaven/hell point btw)

      Like

      1. XYZ

        The point about Sheol was simply to accentuate the enormous difference between
        the Hebrew Bible and the Quran that cannot be simply explained by “corruption”.

        Imagine two cheese wheels, one of blue cheese and one not. If someone told you
        that the latter cheese wheel was originally made of blue cheese but someone
        meticulously cut all the mould out and put the cheese back together, would you
        believe him? Even if the Bible had hundreds of missing books that would not
        help the Islamic case. Heaven and Hell should be permeating throughout the text
        in the same way mould permeates through a cheese wheel, and yet it is not
        present. Absence of evidence where we should expect overwhelming evidence is in
        fact evidence of absence.

        “that doesn’t just “put a stamp on a very human word blah, blah, blah”

        I quote from my previous comment: “Being the verbatim Word of God, the Quran
        chooses every word deliberately and with the utmost precision. What did God
        mean by identifying Hell with the Valley of Hinnom? Is God putting His stamp of
        approval on centuries of Jewish and Christian embellishments of a valley
        outside Jerusalem?”

        I imagine that in an alternate dimension where the Quran did not contain the
        word “Jahannam”, Muslim apologists would be parading that around as a
        “linguistic and historical miracle”, as “it did not repeat a legend of the
        Jews”. The Quran could have used any other word to refer to Hell, and yet it
        uses “Jahannam”. The Vikings perished long ago, but the Jews and Christians
        were using “Gehinnom” in the context that Islam arose in with the same meaning
        as in the Quran.

        “You assumed that is where “Jahannam” derives from…”

        Nouman Ali Khan is not a scholarly source. Here are some scholarly sources
        stating that Jahannam is derived from Gehinnom:

        https://blog.yalebooks.com/2020/03/19/heaven-hell-and-non-muslims-in-the-quran/

        “The Qur’an also threatens its audience with vivid images of hell, described
        with various terms including Jahannam (Greek geenna or “Gehenna,” derived
        ultimately from the Hebrew term ge Hinnom, “the valley of Hinnom”—the name of a
        valley on the outskirts of Jerusalem where pagan sacrifices once took place).”

        Richard P. Taylor (2000). Death and the Afterlife: A Cultural Encyclopedia.

        “JAHANNAM From the Hebrew ge-hinnom, which refers to a valley outside
        Jerusalem, Jahannam is the Islamic word for hell.”

        Alan E. Bernstein (2017). Hell and Its Rivals: Death and Retribution among
        Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Early Middle Ages.

        “…For example, the rabbis of this period [400-800 CE] advanced a very
        concrete hell they called Gehinnom, a term still used by Orthodox Jews. Muslims
        affirm the power of Jahannam, a transliteration of the Hebrew name for the same
        hell that Christians transliterate as Gehenna.”

        “No, they didn’t lol? Stories are completely different. Please see my point
        regarding “dur and words” ”

        The stories aren’t “completely different” at all. The Exodus, Jonah and the
        whale, the destruction of Sodom, etc. are all there, but Heaven, Hell, Satan,
        and the Day of Judgement are not. Why would the Israelites preserve the former,
        but not the latter? There would be no reason for the scribes to simply leave
        out the Islamic afterlife at every turn other than active opposition in an
        enormous conspiracy. “Not caring” is not sufficient explanation.

        “A. Lost the actual revelation they had from Moses (as)…”

        Let us say the early Muslims lost the Quran and concocted a new text that they
        declared to be revelation. Would this text contain the doctrine of Heaven and
        Hell? In contrast to the Hebrew Bible, the message permeates throughout the
        Quran and the sayings of Muhammad, so of course it would. Also, in the Islamic
        narrative the Jews are constantly receiving prophets from Moses all the way up
        to Jesus. Were all their revelations lost as well?

        “Well there are no surviving mentions of inheritance and alcohol prohibition…”

        Alcohol prohibition and inheritance are laws and not foundational creeds. They
        would not be expected to permeate through the text in the same way a
        fundamental belief like Heaven and Hell would.

        “Sure if you ignore the Book of Job and Jewish oral traditions.”

        Job does contain reference to “the accuser” (Hebrew: “ha-satan”), but this is
        not the Devil of Christianity or Islam. The Devil or the Islamic afterlife
        existing in a hypothetical oral tradition would have invariably bled into the
        Biblical text at one point or another.

        “You assume.”

        These aren’t “assumptions” but reasonable conclusions based on the evidence.

        The larger point here is that one of the foundational claims of Islam, that it
        is the original religion of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and all the Biblical
        prophets – that all these figures not only existed but taught previous
        iterations of Islam – is simply not reflected by the history. Heaven and Hell
        is just the most egregious example of this. Instead, it looks like the
        confluence of cultural streams of which the Jewish apocalypticists and their
        ideas of a resurrection and a Day of Judgement is only one.

        Like

      2. stewjo004

        @ XYZ

        1.”The point about Sheol was simply to accentuate the enormous difference between
        the Hebrew Bible and the Quran that cannot be simply explained by “corruption”.

        And my point about Sheol is the various anomous heretical authors can’t even agree their few mentions on that and we know that they steal from other religions around them. Where are we going with this?

        2. “I imagine that in an alternate dimension where the Quran did not contain the
        word “Jahannam”, Muslim apologists would be parading that around as a
        “linguistic and historical miracle”, as “it did not repeat a legend of the
        Jews”. The Quran could have used any other word to refer to Hell, and yet it
        uses “Jahannam”. The Vikings perished long ago, but the Jews and Christians
        were using “Gehinnom” in the context that Islam arose in with the same meaning
        as in the Quran.”

        Since you’re listing so many “scholarly sources” why don’t you crack open Webster’s to understand what a “loanword” is as you are literally arguing the equivalent of old Norse “Helheim” to a person in Modern English using “Hell”. Also quick side note Vikings didn’t “perish” they “converted” but whatever.

        3. “Here are some scholarly sources stating that Jahannam is derived from Gehinnom”

        Could care less what kuffar whose whole point of being established in the first place was to attempt to intellectually attack Islam when they couldn’t defeat it with the sword say especially when they declare things as fact with no evidence. You might as well quote Sam Shamoun from Answeringislam.com as they’re all using the same source (more on this in a sec). Allow me to see this and raise with known scholarly linguists:

        “The word, “Jahannam”, literally means a very deep pit…”
        (Rāghib, al-Mufradāt, p. 102; Ibn al-Athīr, al-Nihāya, vol. 1, p. 323; Bayḍāwī, Anwār al-Tanzīl, vol. 1, p. 111.

        “…Most Muslim lexicographers take “Jahannam” to have a non-Arabic root…” (Azharī, Tahdhīb al-lugha, vol. 6, p. 515; Jawālīqī, al-Muʿrab, p. 107; Khafājī, Shifāʾ al-ghalīl, p. 59.)

        “….while some of them take it to have an Arabic origin.” (Azharī, Tahdhīb al-lugha, vol. 6, p. 515.)

        So pausing for a quick sec here. Did your “scholarly sources” (read retarded orientalists parroting) mention there was a difference of opinion if it’s even a native Arabic word, to begin with? Please see my “why ALL kuffar are stupid and fuel for hell” point. But let’s read on:

        “Isma’il b. Hammad al-Jawhari and al-Raghib al-Isfahani take it to be a persian word. Al-Raghib takes the original form of “Jahannam” to be “Jahannām” (جَهَنّام, a Persian word which means a deep pit)…” (Rāghib, al-Mufradāt, p. 102)

        “Ibn Athir, Ibn Manzur, and al-Suyuti speculate that the word has a Hebrew origin; they hold that it is derived from the Hebrew word, “Kihinnām”… (Jawālīqī, al-Muʿrab, p. 107; Ibn al-Athīr, al-Nihāya, vol. 1. P. 323; Suyūṭī, al-Itqān, vol. 2, p. 132.)

        Hey yo! You’re getting ready to come up now in the discussion now! Emphasis mine:

        “CONTEMPORARY western researchers take the word to be originated from the Hebrew word, “Gehennom” (גיהנום), or “Jihinum” which means the valley of Banu Hinum. (Sacy, Lettre de M. le baron Silvestre de Sacy a M. Gracin de Tassy, p.175; Gieger,Was hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume augenommen?, p.47-48.)

        Now, fascinating point here about where you’re retarded “scholarly sources” got this modern position from. You see that “Geiger” up in the reference there? That’s leading kaffir orientalist “Abraham Geiger” who was a Rabbi hostile to Islam and was trying to “prove” Muhammad’s(saw) stole all his sources from Judaism (despite Jahannam appearing in Meccan Surahs before Jewish contact) and then his also fellow kaffir orientalist Reverend William Tisdall who is one of the founding fathers of Western Orientalistism took the claim and ran with it. Now their stuff is considered horribly outdated and bias in modern research but your fellow “scholarly sources” love to keep quoting them. Now that this academic bully beatdown has been concluded let’s move on to the rest of your points.

        4. “The stories aren’t “completely different” at all. The Exodus, Jonah and the whale, the destruction of Sodom, etc. are all there”

        You’re clearly unfamiliar with the Quran to have made this statement. Yes sometimes you have similar skeletal structures (and other times not at all) but even in the similar skeletal structure as the saying goes the “devil is in the details”. Using a simple example from what you quoted, Biblical Exodus says over 600,000 men alone left Egypt (Num 1, Num 26 ) The Quran says a small group went with Moses(as) (Q 26:54) This affects much of the next story of explaining how over a million people left no archeological evidence behind. There’s more but this was just something off the top of my head.

        5. “Let us say the early Muslims lost the Quran and concocted a new text that they
        declared to be revelation. Would this text contain the doctrine of Heaven and
        Hell?”

        I already gave an example using this analogy so idk if you’re simply being deliberately obtuse so allow me to almost put it in an almost crayon drawing like explanation:

        A. Muslims have a portion that is 1/30th of the Quran that’s popular
        B. If Quran and Hafiz were lost this portion might survive as it’s popular.
        C. The other 29/30 sections not as popular like laws would more than likely die
        D. Now 3000 years later people say early Muslims didn’t have a law system

        That is basically what you’re arguing in a nutshell.

        “In contrast to the Hebrew Bible, the message permeates throughout the
        Quran..”

        Thank you for conceding my point that they don’t care about it hence why they debated about it even before Muhammad(saw). The Bible in general doesn’t even discuss that much theology much less the afterlife to begin with and is basically a glorified history book so this entire argument about heaven/hell is a wash.

        6. “Were all their revelations lost as well?”

        Yes…hence…why Islam exists in the first place to correct all this. 🙄Anyways…

        7. “Alcohol prohibition and inheritance are laws and not foundational creeds. They
        would not be expected to permeate through the text in the same way a
        fundamental belief like Heaven and Hell would.”

        Says who, you? To begin, approx 33% of the Quran is laws and in my example we would have no laws period. That’s a major loss. Many “foundational creeds” get lossed throughout the centuries (case in point Christians and monotheism) Even outside of Abrahamic religions in the Dharmic religions they lost “foundational creeds” (example buddhism and the concept of the soul) So as I said before you make a bunch of assumptions and theb declare them as facts.

        8. “Job does contain reference to “the accuser” (Hebrew: “ha-satan”), but this is
        not the Devil of Christianity or Islam.”

        I’ve heard this argument before and read the Book of Job. How have you reached that conclusion from the textual evidence in the tale? Also I love that you ignored Jewish oral tradition but whatever I guess we’ll keep ignoring it because it’s inconvenient for you.

        9. “These aren’t “assumptions” but reasonable conclusions based on the evidence.”

        Nope, just pure assumptions usually coming straight from your derriere.

        10. “that all these figures not only existed but taught previous iterations of Islam – is simply not reflected by the history”

        You mean other than things like the early Jerusalem Church? Or Xenophanes of Greece? Or Imana of the Barundi? Or Waaqeffanna of Somalia? Or Shangdi of China? Or that the vast majority of religions have a “on high God” that they later add more family to. Sure I can agree with that.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. stewjo004

        @ XYZ

        And also to add a little pepper to this from the Hebrew Bible:

        The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 )

        And finally, as I thought about this more why do you keep saying the multiple authors throughout the centuries when the bulk of the Hebrew Bible comes from 4 authors?

        Liked by 1 person

    2. mr.heathcliff

      I dont understand ur question, does not the quran address mankind and say satan is their enemy? So how come u left out texts from outside of israel?

      Like

    3. mr.heathcliff

      “Even if the Bible had hundreds of missing books that would not
      help the Islamic case.”

      why not ? are you assuming that each book of the original ot talked about heaven and hell ?

      ” Heaven and Hell should be permeating throughout the text”

      you made an assumption which you must justify
      , are you assuming that each biblical book, hundreds of them had heaven stories permeating through them ?

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Assalamu alaikum,

    Guys, I have done an atrocity in past during my teenage periods around age of 15 by praying to Prophet Jesus when I should have prayed to God Almighty.

    And I wasn’t taught about the severity and danger of polytheism, i only was taught the “there is no God but Allah” by my dad.

    My questions and requests are:

    1. Can you please ask God Almighty To wipe me out from existence as if I never existed? If no then,
    2. Can you please ask God Almighty for new test so I can fix my stupidity?
    3. Is there any forgiveness for my stupidity which I did?
    4. How should I seek forgiveness?

    Jazak allah Khair

    Like

    1. On the contrary i’d say she’s projecting her internalized racism, I don’t see anything racist about the hadith…it could still be a brown lady or white or some chinese the reasoning would still be the same i.e a plague is being “transferred”

      Liked by 1 person

    2. stewjo004

      @foued

      You can invite her here to comment if you want but not seeing how she came to that conclusion.
      Dream interpretation which is what the Prophet was doing is you take events in the dreams as symbols and figure out what they represent. For example:

      Ibn ‘abbas narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said:
      “I had a dream while sleeping as if there were two gold bracelets in my hands which bothered me very much. So it was revealed to me to blow them off. I blew them off and they flew away. I interpreted them to be two liars who would appear after me. One of them called Masalamah of Yamamah, and (the other) Al-‘ansi of San’a’.

      I don’t see how describing a person’s physical description is racist is the first point. Next, I would get her argument if it said “dreaming of black people is bad” but they’re not correlated. Most people describe skin color when talking for example:

      “Suspect is a young white male, wearing a gray hoodie…”

      If (and again this is Stewjo’s inshaAllah hikmah) many black women were slaves during the Prophet’s time, so it could mean through slave trading a plague was going to come to that area. Or because the woman’s hair wasn’t taken care of it could mean mourning for the dead about to be affected. And Allah hu alim.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh,

    Guys, I wish to ask Allah To let me live up to age of 1000 and To increase my young age till age of 500 and To Allow Antichrist appear only after my death, because I don’t see him or meet him.

    Is this permissible or prohibited for me to ask Allah for such favor?

    Like

  7. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh,

    Guys, I have Autism, Asperger, Di-George and OCD, and I have issues with laziness and emotions.

    You see? I intend to make justice, equity and equality based on my feelings so I can satisfy my feelings. For an example, when i’m wronged by someone, my feelings tell me to seek revenge, and when a Christian attacks Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) I have the desire of attacking Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) as means of harsh response to him or her so that individual will sincerely apologize for the treachery.

    My questions are:

    1. Is this understandable my judgement?
    2. Will Allah takfire me on the Day of Judgement if I make such decision based on my unstable feelings?

    Jazak Allah Khair

    Like

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