بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْم
Response to a Christian Apologist: Was Jesus “Worshiped” in the Gospels?
A Christian blogger has written a terrible rebuttal to my article “Was Jesus ‘Worshiped’ in the Gospels”.[1] The present article is a brief response to that train-wreck.
On the Title “Abdul”
Before we get into the main topic, it is quite comical that this obvious fan of “Christian Prince” refers to Muslims as “Abduls”, as if it is an insult. Though it is not my actual name, I am proud to call myself Abdullah, the slave/servant of Allah. The irony is that Jesus is also the “slave/servant of Allah”, as stated in Acts 3:13:
“The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.”[2]
So, as Muslims, we are proud to be called “Abdullah” as we are indeed the servants of Allah, as were all the prophets, including Jesus (peace be upon him).
But what shall we call our Christian critic? I think an appropriate title would be Abdul Ba’al. The reason is that I assume this Christian believes that the “one like a Son of Man” in Daniel 7:13 is actually Jesus, and he worships and “serves” this person. However, as I noted in my article on the book of Daniel, the entire vision in Daniel 7 appears to be a rip-off of the Ba’al myth discovered in ancient Ugarit.[3] Ba’al was the storm god, riding on the clouds, just like the “son of man” in Daniel 7:13. Therefore, the Christian has unknowingly become the servant of the false, pagan god Ba’al. Hence, his name should be Abdul Ba’al. I will call him “AB” for short for the rest of the article.
Distractions
AB began his rant in typical, Christian apologetic fashion: he tried to protect his Bible by attempting to use the Quran and Sunnah as a shield (i.e., by claiming that both “confirm” that the Bible is true scripture). Instead of wasting time with this pathetic distraction, let it suffice that this issue has already dealt with in a separate article (see endnote #4).[4]
What does προσκυνέω (proskyneō) Mean?
Perhaps in a vain attempt to show off his knowledge of Greek, AB spent most of his…ahem…“rebuttal” ranting about “tenses” and “moods”, all the while, completely ignoring the scholarly lexicographic sources I had cited in my original article pertaining to the actual definition of the word προσκυνέω. To repeat what was already said, the Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (ANLEX) states that the word προσκυνέω means to “bow down” in its “basic sense” and could be used for both God and humans. This definition was completely and conveniently ignored by AB. But let’s add an additional source to the mix, shall we?
In his book Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament, Professor Jason D. BeDuhn states that in the historical context of the time:
“[s]ocial convention dictated gestures of deference and respect from inferior to superior…In the presence of someone of high rank, low bows or prostrations were expected. The Greek verb that expresses making such a prostration was proskyneō.”[5]
BeDuhn also explains that the English word “worship” has a different and limited meaning in modern English as compared to older English (in translations like the King James Version), where it could be used “as a form of address to people of high status”.[6]
So, the fact of the matter is that proskyneō is not limited to simply religious “worship” given to a deity, but rather “bowing down” to a superior being, even if it was another human being. One could compare it to the angels being commanded to bow down to Adam (peace be upon him), as mentioned in the Quran:
“And ˹remember˺ when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam,”1 so they all did—but not Iblîs, who refused and acted arrogantly, becoming unfaithful.”[7]
Contrary to the ignorant claims of AB, this verse does NOT state that the command was to “worship” Adam, but rather to simply prostrate to Adam as a sign of his superiority (see the commentary by Ibn Kathir in endnote #8).[8] If AB knew even a little bit of the Arabic language, he would know that the word for “worship” is عبادة (e.g., see Surah al-Imran 3:51),[9] whereas سُجود means “prostration”. It seems AB’s confusion between “worship” and “prostration” extends into Arabic as well and not just Greek! While prostration can be an act of worship depending on the context and intention of the person, it is not necessarily the same thing as “worship”.[10]
This rebuttal can be finished here but let us discuss some examples of our Christian critic shooting himself in the foot, just for additional entertainment.
Was David “Worshiped” Like God?
Despite his long rant, our Christian critic AB neglected to discuss 1 Chronicles 29:20, not even in passing, and actually ended up digging himself into a bigger hole. Recall that in the original article, the Septuagint rendition of 1 Chronicles 29:20 was cited as an example of the use of proskyneō as being for both God and King David, thus showing that it is not limited to “worship” of a deity and could be used for homage paid to humans. Here are the English and Greek texts side by side (with the Greek word in bold):
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“And all the assembly blessed the Lord, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and paid homage to the Lord and to the king.” |
“καὶ εἶπεν Δαυεὶδ πάσῃ τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ Εὐλογήσατε κύριον τὸν θεὸν ἡμῶν· καὶ εὐλόγησεν πᾶσα ἡ ἐκκλησία κύριον τὸν θεὸν τῶν πατέρων αὐτῶν, καὶ κάμψαντες τὰ γόνατα προσεκύνησαν Κυρίῳ καὶ τῷ βασιλεῖ.”[11] |
Notice that the ESV translation indicates that “homage” was paid to both “the Lord” and “to the king”. Even Christian commentaries admit this. Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers states:
“As God’s earthly representative, David receives the same tokens of reverence and homage.”[12]
The Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament concurs:
“At the conclusion of the prayer, David calls upon the whole assembly to praise God; which they do, bowing before God and the king, and worshipping.”[13]
So, were God and David both “worshiped” or was it merely an act of bowing down to both as a sign of respect that is due to each but not necessarily “worshiping” both the same way? We have to assume that AB would suggest the latter. Indeed, it can be reasonably stated that the “homage” to God was in the manner due to Him alone, and the “homage” to David was in the manner due to him as a mere human being (i.e., not on the same level as for God).
Worst of all, the same form of proskyneō that is used in the Septuagint for 1 Chronicles 29:20 is also used in this verse in Revelation 5:13, a verse which AB cited in his rant (including an analysis of it grammatical form) to try to prove that Jesus received “worship” that is due to God alone (emphasis ours):
“Jesus Christ who is the Lamb receives universal worship from all of creation. Notice this worship which all of creation is taking part is directed to “him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13. Here the word used is προσεκύνησαν (prosekýnisan) Aorist Active Indicative, only God alone deserves this kind of worship and Christ is receiving this worship.”
Hmm…so προσεκύνησαν (prosekýnisan), the “Aorist Active Indicative” form, is the “kind of worship” that only God “deserves”, and since Christ is the object of this “worship” in Revelation 5:13, then it means that Christ is God! Or so AB would have us believe. But if we follow this logic, it would mean that King David also was “receiving this worship”, since 1 Chronicles 29:20 uses the same “Aorist Active Indicative” form (see Figure 1)![14]
Of course, this would only be a problem if we were as silly as AB and assume that proskyneō only means “worship” in the way that only God “deserves”.[15]
The Church of Philadelphia and “Hypothetical” Worship
In his rant about Revelation 3:9, AB offered a rather strange interpretation about the “worship” given to the church of Philadelphia:
“…Jesus is not making those persecutors worship the Christians, but that those persecutors would acknowledge God seeing that the followers of Christ were right in their worship of Jesus.”
Once again, AB seems to be completely oblivious to the fact that proskyneō doesn’t have to mean “worship” in the sense of religious “worship” given to God alone! It is a much broader word. As stated in my original article, the word is ambiguous enough as to avoid assuming that it only means religious “worship”. Rather, its basic meaning is to “bow down” to a superior. In that case, no matter what the “mood” in the Greek text is, the meaning is simply that the “synagogue of Satan” would be made to “bow down” to the Christians in the future, as a sign of the latter’s superiority to the former.
Speaking of the “mood”, AB stated that the Greek form of proskyneō in Revelation 3:9 is προσκυνήσωσιν, which uses the “subjunctive” mood. The problem with this claim is that AB is appealing to the so-called “Textus Receptus”.[16] In contrast, the so-called “Morphological Greek New Testament” (MGNT) uses a different form of proskyneō, namely the “future active indicative” form (see Figure 2).[17]
Incidentally, this is the same form used in the Greek Septuagint rendition of Isaiah 45:14,[18] which I previously cited in the original article, in which it is prophesied that the enemies of the Israelites will “bow down” to them in the future:
|
“Thus says the Lord: ‘The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours; they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will plead with you, saying: ‘Surely God is in you, and there is no other, no god besides him.’’” |
οὕτως λέγει κύριος σαβαωθ ἐκοπίασεν Αἴγυπτος καὶ ἐμπορία Αἰθιόπων καὶ οἱ Σεβωιν ἄνδρες ὑψηλοὶ ἐπὶ σὲ διαβήσονται καὶ σοὶ ἔσονται δοῦλοι καὶ ὀπίσω σου ἀκολουθήσουσιν δεδεμένοι χειροπέδαις καὶ προσκυνήσουσίν σοι καὶ ἐν σοὶ προσεύξονται ὅτι ἐν σοὶ ὁ θεός ἐστιν καὶ ἐροῦσιν οὐκ ἔστιν θεὸς πλὴν σοῦ |
So, it is not at all clear what “mood” was used in the original text of Revelation 3:9. However, if AB and other Christians can try to remember that proskyneō does not always mean religious “worship”, then it is irrelevant for our purposes. The original conclusion still stands: there is no clear statement that Jesus was “worshiped” like God. Rather, there are numerous statements about other people (and angels) “bowing” to him as a sign of his superiority, and not necessarily due to his alleged “divinity”.
Recall also that there was a Greek word that was used exclusively for “the worship of a deity”: σέβω. It is used sparingly in the Greek New Testament, appearing only twice (Mark 7:7 and Matthew 15:9), both of which quote the Septuagint rendition of Isaiah 29:13.[19] So, the question is why was this perfectly clear and unambiguous word never used for Jesus? AB failed miserably to answer this question.
Conclusion
Christians are trapped in a false religion that teaches them to worship a human being as “God”. Despite writing a long article, AB failed to disprove my initial claims, choosing instead to rant about Greek grammar and “moods”, all the while completely ignoring the amgiguity behind the word proskyneō. He just assumed the word only means “worship”, but then tried to deny that meaning in Revelation 3:9 (for obvious reasons). This further exposes the inconsistency of Christians that I mentioned in the original article. Despite all the effort, insults, and arrogance, AB ultimately could not prove that Jesus truly was “worshiped” as “God” or that he accepted such “worship”.
And Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) knows best!
[1] https://quranandbibleblog.com/2022/01/29/was-jesus-worshiped-in-the-gospels/
The Christian response can be found here: https://whatsoeverthingsaretrue.org/2022/02/28/was-jesus-worshiped-in-the-gospels/
[2] All Bible translations are from the English Standard Version unless otherwise noted.
[3] https://quranandbibleblog.com/2020/05/07/updated-article-the-book-of-daniel-a-critical-examination/
[4] https://quranandbibleblog.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/
[5] Jason David BeDuhn, Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament (Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America, 2003), pp. 41–42.
[6] Ibid., p. 42.
[7] Surah al-Baqara, 2:34 (Mustafa Khattab translation).
[8] Ibn Kathir’s commentary explains that the act of prostration was not to worship Adam but to honor him, similar to Joseph’s dream of his family prostrating to him (http://m.qtafsir.com/Surah-Al-Baqara/The-Prostration-was-before-Ada—).
[9] “Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him ˹alone˺. This is the Straight Path.”
Here, the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) says that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) is the only One worthy of “worship” (ibada).
[10] Of course, with the coming of Islam, prostrating to a human being is no longer allowed.
[11] https://biblehub.com/sepd/1_chronicles/29.htm
[12] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ellicott/1_chronicles/29.htm
[13] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kad/1_chronicles/29.htm
[14] https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/1ch/29/20/t_conc_367020
[15] As a side note, the silly Christian AB appealed to the myth of the “Magi” visiting the infant Jesus since it also used the “Aorist Active Indicative” form of proskyneō to describe how the pagan astrologers “worshiped” Jesus. I have written about this silly myth elsewhere and demonstrated how absurd the story is: https://quranandbibleblog.com/2020/03/29/ken-temple-and-good-science-debunking-another-christian-lie.
For our purposes here, it should suffice that the story was probably based on a historical meeting between the emperor Nero and the Armenian king Tiridates, as the late scholar Geza Vermes observed:
“[i]t is conceivable that another relatively recent event influenced Matthew and prompted him to introduce the Magi into his narrative. This was the visit to Rome in the late 50s or early 60s AD of the Armenian king Tiridates and his courtiers, whom Pliny the Elder designates as Magi (Natural History 30:6, 16-17). This Tiridates is said to have come to Rome to worship the emperor-god Nero in the same way as Matthew’s Magi came to worship the newborn Messiah of the Jews. A further curious coincidence which may have caught Matthew’s attention is a detail noted by the Roman chronicler Cassius Dio. After Tiridates had been confirmed by Nero as king, this group of ‘Magi,’ like the ‘wise men’ of the New Testament, did not return by the same route as the one they followed coming to Rome (Roman History 63:1-7)” (Geza Vermes, The Nativity: History and Legend [London: Penguin Books, 2006], p. 112.).
So, not only does this myth not serve as undeniable proof that Jesus was “worshiped” as “God” (if he was, why did his mother and the rest of his family consider him to be “crazy” as stated in Mark 3:21?), it is a most likely a myth anyway. Even in this myth, Jesus was not necessarily “worshiped” but rather paid “homage” by the Magi (i.e., by being bowed to).
[16] https://www.blueletterbible.org/tr/rev/3/9/p0/t_conc_1170009
[17] https://www.blueletterbible.org/mgnt/rev/3/9/p0/t_conc_1170009
[18] https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/isa/45/14/t_conc_724014
[19] https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/isa/29/13/p0/t_conc_708013
The Quran and Bible Blog 
Great short and sweet article.
On the topic of the alleged “worship” that Christians claim Jesus(a.s) received I find it interesting that none have provided a satisfying answer to the problems it creates. That by worshiping him one commits both idolatry and polytheism by their own standards.
Idolatry due to the fact that since the hypostatic union is both 100% God and 100% man 100% of the time whenever someone worships the “god-man” they must be giving worship to a fully human nature that is not worthy of worship. If you say you do not worship the human nature but only the divine nature then you are guilty of separating the natures. A literal damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario.
Polytheism due to the fact that you giving worship to a person who now has a distinct substance completely separate from the shared divine substance. Christians have so often claimed that the trinity is not polytheism because they worship three persons sharing the same substance instead of three persons who all had separate substances. “Three who’s one what” being a common slogan or catchphrase. They neglect to mention and ponder that one of those “who’s” posses an additional “what” thus meeting their own criteria for polytheism.
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thats why i been telling goony to count the essences. I cant remember how many times i asked saheeh gooni
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@ Vaqas
I usually don’t get into their nonsensical philosophical crap, but splitting the natures at the time of worship is a fantastic point Allahuma zeena wa barik.
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@Stew
Aside from being what they would call a heresy the notion itself is nonsensical. I mean it all is but another layer of nonsense.
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“they must be giving worship to a fully human nature that is not worthy of worship.”
“but only the divine nature then you are guilty of separating the natures. ”
0: son is supposed to be divine logos
1. the son sleeps
2. son is identical to jesus
4. divine logos sleeps
5. kristers worship a sleeping divine logos
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You sure do talk a lot, to come to such wrong conclusions. Not only did Jesus Say, “I Am God,” he also accepted all worship. Alhamdul-Isa habibi. JesusSaidIAmGod.com Let me know if I missed anything.. 🙂
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😂 Another day, another Crosstian who can’t refute the arguments against his silly cult but instead makes clownish remarks. 🤡
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It seems you are following the last words of Muhammad, “May Allah curse all of the Christians and Jews” – You offer not one stitch of evidence. I provided an entire writing on the matter. I’ll cut it and past it in here so you aren’t too troubled by the effort and therefore refute you.
Jesus said, “I AM GOD.”
…and He accepted all worship
Did Jesus actually say, “I AM GOD?” The answer I’m about to give you may be surprising. It may even be the first time you’ve heard it. YES… Jesus said, “I AM GOD.” As it is written in the Bible, God declared His own name to His people nearly 5000 years ago and proclaimed that all of His people would know Him by that name.
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:14-15
God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you… This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.” – God introduces himself as “I AM” and says His name is to be remembered forever by the children of Israel. These children of Israel are the Jews.
The Jews knew God by His name “I AM.” It was written down. It was talked about in the Temple. It was common knowledge among the families of the Jews as it was passed down from generation to generation. EVERYONE in the Jewish community has known the name of God for thousands of years. Let that really sink in.
Then Jesus came…
During the time of Jesus’ ministry, people of the land talked about His amazing teachings and miraculous works that they had seen Him perform.
Jesus tells a paralytic, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” The scribes and the Pharisees then say, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Jesus answered, “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:20-26
Jesus tells the paralytic that his sins are forgiven, an act that the Jewish leaders know only God can perform. Jesus then miraculously heals the paralytic who then gets up and walks and then Jesus declares, “But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins.” Jesus is quoting from the Jewish Bible1 specifically the book of Daniel where it refers to the coming Messiah. This prophesied Messiah is known as “the Son of Man.”
I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14
Jesus is referring to himself as the Son of Man AND as the Messiah. The Jewish leaders see Jesus’ statements and actions as blasphemy. But they have not heard Jesus drop the actual bomb… yet…
And Jesus said to them, ‘You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.’ The Jews then ask Jesus, ‘Who are you?’
John 8:23-25
They asked who Jesus was claiming to be, because they know the term “I AM” and are confused.
‘When you lift up2 the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM…’
John 8:28
Again Jesus says he is “the Son of Man” and declares His name, “I AM.”
Shortly after, Jesus said, ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and He saw it and was glad.’ The Jews then responded, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus replied, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ Then they took up stones to throw at Him…
John 8:56-59
Jesus said He was in the presence of Abraham over 1700 years prior to this event and then again claims to be “I AM.” The result is that the Jews try to stone Jesus.3
Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.’ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
John 10:25-31
Jesus says, “I give eternal life” and “I and My Father are one.” The Jews know that God is ONE4 and that no simple man could be equal with Father God and no one but God can give eternal life. They see Jesus as speaking blasphemy and so they go to stone him. Yet again…
Jesus has taken the name “I AM” for himself, over and over again. Jesus says that He will give people eternal life and that He and His Father are one. The Jews clearly are incensed by these claims from Jesus, so much so that they pick up stones, again and again from the ground, to stone and kill Jesus… But why??? Up to this point they commented that what Jesus has said and done were considered blasphemy, but now we get some clarity from the Jews themselves as to why.
Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 10:32-33
Jesus said, “I Am God.” Repeatedly. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying — their intention to stone and kill Him for blasphemy clearly demonstrates their understanding of Jesus’ claim to be God. But… if Jesus IS actually God, why weren’t at least some of the people worshiping Him as God? Well, maybe they were and we just weren’t paying attention?
I’m going to illustrate how Jews worshiped God by showing you biblically what Jewish worship looked like. Some do’s and don’ts, so to speak, so that you can see their practices regarding worship in the Old Testament:
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?” – Joshua 5:14
Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. – Job 1:20
Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying… – Genesis 17:3
Falling on ones face is a literal statement here. They would drop in humility, showing reverence to God in worship. That’s important to know as we now look at these inappropriate examples of worship as described in the New Testament:
As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” – Acts 10:25-26
At this I (John) fell at his feet (an angel) to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! – Revelation 19:10
Neither the disciple Peter nor an angel, would accept worship, and they made sure to call out those who fell at their feet because these people were worshiping that which is not worthy of worship. Only God is worthy of worship. Now we know how the Jews should and did worship, so let’s look at what happened with Jesus:
And when they5 had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. – Matthew 2:11
Matthew 2:11
Worship a child? What would lead grown men to do such a thing?
Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him (Jesus), saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”
Matthew 14:33
They worshiped Jesus in the customary Jewish fashion. And they called Him the Son of God. What does this title mean, Son of God?
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves Him who is begotten of Him
1 John 5:1
This takes a bit to process. The Bible says Jesus comes forth; He is begotten of God. Not created, but is born in the flesh after having eternally existed as deity.6 Bottom line… These people are worshiping Jesus and He accepts that worship.
Jesus heard that they had cast him7 out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?” He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.” Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:35-38
Again, there is that “Son of God” comment and another person who worshiped Jesus as was a customary Jewish practice.
Watch what happens when Jesus waits to be taken in captivity, shortly before His crucifixion. Jesus was in the Garden after preparing His heart with what was to come
From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day
Matthew 16:21
and stood there awaiting His captors’ arrival.
When Jesus had spoken these words, He went out with His disciples over the Brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which He and His disciples entered. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples. Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops8, and officers from the chief priests9 and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?” They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I AM.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, “I AM,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:1-6
Let that marinate for a minute. Potentially hundreds of people, coming to arrest Jesus, including the one who was paid to betray Jesus, drew back and fell to the ground. Jesus says the words “I AM” and something caused them to draw back and fall at the presence of Jesus. What was it?
Was it an earthquake? There’s nothing in the text to indicate that. Was it just Jesus claiming to be God? Perhaps. Some had worshiped Him because of His claim, but those were people who believed what He had said and were moved to follow him.
Or was it the power of God, in the flesh and form of Jesus, that humbled these men to the ground as He uttered His name, “I AM?” I don’t know of a better explanation, from what the text says. Either way, it triggered something in them and they fell to the ground. Just at Jesus mentioning His name “I AM“, they drew back and fell to the ground as is the Jewish practice to worship. They ultimately show reverence to Jesus, and again He accepted what appears to be worship that is only reserved to the one who was, and is, and is to come – God Almighty10 11 – the person Jesus of Nazareth.
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to Him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:28-19
Thomas not only believed that Jesus was God, but he called Him God, because he saw Him alive – after Jesus had been resurrected. Jesus said He would resurrect HIMSELF…
So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
John 2:18-21
..And then three days later Jesus was resurrected.12
So, let’s do a quick recap of what we have seen of Jesus. Jesus forgives sin. He heals the sick. He said He is “the Son of Man” as prophesied in the OT book of Daniel. He said He is “the Son of God.” He accepts worship time after time without rebuking anyone for false worship. He says He is the known name of God as stated in the Old Testament, “I AM” over and over and over. People who heard Jesus say these things responded in varied ways. Some wanted to kill Him, some followed Him, some called Him teacher and others fell down on their face in worship. But get this… in John 2 Jesus said He would raise himself from the grave… and then HE did just that…
Jesus said, “I AM GOD” and He accepted all worship.
If you have another answer for what happened, I’m all for having a dialogue on this subject. I was a skeptic for a majority of my life regarding this account of Jesus being God. I’ve had tons of questions, so I can appreciate people who have questions as well. If you have a question or questions, let me know. Let’s talk.
After all is said and done, here’s my question for you. If Jesus isn’t God, then who is He? Who do YOU say that Jesus is? Let me know your thoughts and… provide evidence.
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@ charleslaird
I’ll allow QB to respond to the alleged “I Am” statement (note he(as) NEVER said anything in this book of “John” see “5 gospels by Robert Funk”) and will instead talk about what you said here:
“If Jesus isn’t God, then who is He? Who do YOU say that Jesus is? Let me know your thoughts and… provide evidence.”
Jesus(as) is a prophet of God and one of the many messengers God has sent to mankind. He is 100% human and he came to correct false teachings that the Jews had made. God allowed him to perform many miracles to prove his claim of being a prophet but later on pagans and deviant idealogies infected what he taught until they drowned out the actual followers. Evidence first:
1. The people of Jerusalem (aka the spot where Jesus(as) taught)
Allow me to introduce you to what is known as “Jewish Christianity” our only known group coming out of the Jerusalem Church led by James the Just (who is said to be Jesus’s(as) brother and who Paul had to explain himself to several times) What was their beliefs?
– There is only one God.
– Jesus is the true prophet.
– A simple lifestyle is desired by God.
– Alcohol should be avoided.
– God has one law for everyone.
– The law has been distorted by false texts.
– Paul was an apostate from the law.
Now different groups differed in other areas but this was the general groupings for this branch. So why does Jesus’s (as) brother not believe he is some demigod but like Muslims human and a prophet?
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Lol, apparently our Christian friend thinks Jesus made the astonishing “I am” statements, thereby claiming to be “Yahweh”, and somehow Paul, Mark, Matthew, and Luke all forgot to mention these astonishing claims! 🤦♂️
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Hi guys,
Very glad to see a tag-team here. That will be beneficial. I’ll start with stewjo004 and your citation of a well distributed text called “5 gospels” by Robert Funk. I went ahead and did as I normally do and investigated sources to find out a bit about them, to determine what the evidence is – as to whether this is a reliable source or not. I have made my conclusion, but I want to see what your ultimate conclusion is, seeing that you put them in such high regard.
Let me provide some info for you. Robert Funk is the wonder of Westar Institute who was integregal in the Jesus Institute. They had some Bible “scholars” (Ph.D. or equivalent in religious studies or related disciplines) and mostly people who are “interested” in the Bible, who voted with beads, to show how they felt about certain texts. If you would like to join, they have an open admission for Associate Members, that is open to anyone with an interest from any walk of life or profession or religious background. It seems you would be very welcome. (https://www.westarinstitute.org/about/frequently-asked-questions/)
Let me give you two fun facts from the author of Robert Funk and his initiative, “They do not believe he was virgin-born; he performed no miracles” https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/221-the-jesus-seminar-part-1
Are you still using them as a reasonable and scholarly source. In fact, as a group, they don’t believe in any miracles… This is your source against Christianity?
See, I use reliable sources. You bring in a source, which also tears down Islam, to try to defeat Christianity? Best case scenario, you did zero authentication of this source and just heard it from someone and thought it was a good idea to pass on unverified information. Worst case scenario, you knew it was a bad source and thought this true God believing Christian wasn’t interested in actual truth and scholarship and wouldn’t investigate your false claim.
I asked that you provide evidence. You didn’t. Instead, you give me some nonsense and your buddy is mocking with his LOL. Your evidence is easily refutable as being fake. Do better and I may find something worthy of responding.
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@charleslaird
Not tag teaming I just have no interest in debating what the fanfiction that is the “Gospel of John” says. (More in a sec why i called it that but quick note the authors did not believe in a trinity or that Jesus was God/equal they believed he (pre-existed with God as a semi-divine entity but kind of like a subservient force to the Father’s will like the Holy Spirit is in modern Christendom) Also, I can’t seem to notice there was no response given about the people who Jesus(as) preached to not believing in him being a demigod so I guess we’ll ignore that because it’s too awkward in the room.
Regarding Robert Funk, just because I agree with someone’s conclusions on one topic does not mean I have to agree with everything they say. This is called having “critical thinking skills” and I do this even within my own religious beliefs of Islam. In the actual book, they explain each individual verse and the argument (as I have read it) for and against and I agree with the assessment that it’s just religious propaganda by a school in Syria that modified a gnostic document. We can clearly see stealing in this book from people like Philo of Alexandria even in its famous prologue. Couple that with basic common sense like who memorized these pages long Greek discourses that Jesus(as) is now all of sudden engaging in, him losing his “Jewishness”, changing of events like the date of the Passover, major forgeries such as John 7:53-8:1–11 and most important of all we don’t even know who wrote it, to begin with, what is there to discuss regarding this document?
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@charleslaird
“You offer not one stitch of evidence.”
I mean, did you even read the article and citations/footnotes?
I find it odd that you object to the notion of cursing disbelievers. Do you think that’s immoral? That God and his prophets can’t or shouldn’t do that?
Anyway I’d like to try to respond to some of the points you raised.
The “I AM” sayings are the meat of your comment but I want to first deal with the other things you mentioned sprinkled throughout it.
You spoke of Jesus(a.s) healing a paralytic in luke so I want to compare it with the version in mathew. The accounts in mark(2:1–12) and luke(5:17–26)are pretty similar with the main differences being the scribes explicitly saying the act is blasphemy because “only God can forgive sins” instead of in matthew where they don’t say what exactly is blasphemous and the crowds being just awestruck in general to the whole event as opposed to the version in matthew where they clearly say they are amazed and praising God “for giving such authority to humans.”
In all of the accounts of the event Jesus(a.s) does not respond to the scribes thoughts as correct or by saying “it is because I am God” but instead asks why they think such things. With matthew adding that he called their thoughts “evil.”
Additionally in johns gospel it is said Jesus(a.s) apostles are given such ability/authority. John 20:21-23
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”
In Catholicism the Catholic priests are delegated authority for the same function. Catholic priests say “I absolve you from your sins” in the Sacrament of Penance for example. Full text from the sacrament:
“God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins. Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace. And I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
To be clear other Christian groups such as Protestants clearly and firmly disagree with the interpretation and notion that Catholic priests can forgive sins. They have their own reasons and interpretations for the verses in john but I’d argue the text itself it pretty clear on the matter. Even then, I don’t know if any of them would say the Catholics have made their priests gods but who knows?
Point I’m making is the account of Jesus(a.s) having the authority to forgive sins does not necessitate him being divine.
You mention the son of man or one like a son of man prophecy as the coming of the messiah. Question do you or do you not interpret this passage as many other Christians do that this is evidence that the messiah is supposed to be divine because he “comes on the clouds of heaven”?
You cited the episode where the Jews were going to stone Jesus(a.s) in John 10 and as most Christians you interestingly end the citation at verse 33.
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods?’ 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the one whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”
Jesus(a.s) pretty much refutes their argument here. Even if you want to argue that was not the intention of his words you would still have to acknowledge he is showing them to be generally ignorant of their understanding of scripture. In which case, why take the words of ignorant as the true interpretation of scripture?
Side note I also find it interesting that Jesus(a.s) is said to have cited Psalm 82:6 against his accusers. The verse itself is of course relevant to their charges as well as the one you made with putting special importance on the “son of God” title since it like many others show that phraseology need not mean divinity. As the saying goes “In the bible God has sons by the tons.” But what I mean is the very next verse of the Psalm verse that is cited says,
7But like mortals you will die,
and like rulers you will fall.”
Somethings to ponder, why would Jesus(a.s) cite a psalm in response to his opponents instead of just agreeing with them? And why the psalm which shows that being called God or the son of God doesn’t mean you are literally divine as well as one that states that death disqualifies divinity?
Now finally to the “I AM” sayings. First I want to clarify a common misunderstanding that you and several Christians have. That “I am”/”I am that I am” or ehyeh/ehyeh asher ehyeh in hebrew is yhwh. While it is true that “Ehyeh” was considered a name for God by some and the two are considered related such that one is considered an insight or explanation of the other, they are obviously not the same name/term as you see by comparing them. Jews are allowed to speak and write ehey asher ehey and are forbidden from speaking or writing out the Tetragrammaton rendering it only as yhwh or yhvh. Also Exodus 3:15 says of yhwh that “This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.” yet the original pronunciation was lost to history and the name itself fell into disuse. Which of course makes the promise attached to the name a false promise/false prophecy.
You cited John 8:23-28 I feel like you as do many Christians increase the number of the “I AM” sayings whenever you see the phrase even through Egō eimi or I am is a common phrase. The only time it could even be a reference to ehyeh is due to context. And by simply reading multiple translations of John 8:23-28 you can see that not everyone agrees it is one of the “I AM” sayings.
In Addition see these interesting commentaries on certain bible verses. i feel they prove the “I AM” statements if they even happened are not unique in concept.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/7-4.htm
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
4. turn away thy son from following me] Expressed differently in Exodus 34:16 b but to the same effect, that the influence of the foreign wife on her Israelite husband will be to lead him into idolatry. From after me (lit.): as the speaker is Moses, the me has been taken to be due to abbreviation of the divine name, and Jehovah is read; but in that case we should have had Jehovah thy God. Therefore retain me and take this as an instance, occurring again in Deuteronomy 17:3, Deuteronomy 28:20, Deuteronomy 29:5 (4), and frequent in the discourses of the prophets, of the merging of the speaker’s personality in that of the Deity, for whom he speaks.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/17-3.htm
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
3. gone and served other gods] So Deuteronomy 13:6; Deuteronomy 13:13 (7, 14); and 2 (3) with slight variation.sun, moon, etc.] See on Deuteronomy 4:19.which I have not commanded] Cp. Deuteronomy 4:19 : which thy God hath assigned unto the peoples. The use of the first person here is remarkable; God Himself takes up the speech, as in Deuteronomy 7:4 and frequently in the prophets: e.g. Jeremiah 7:31; Jeremiah 19:5; Jeremiah 32:35.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/28-20.htm
Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
Thou hast forsaken me.—Moses and Jehovah are here identified. This is characteristic. The prophets say, “Thus saith the Lord.” Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, sometimes exhorts Israel in His name without any such introduction. (Comp. the phrase “to forsake Moses” (literally, apostasy from Moses) in Acts 21:21.)
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/29-5.htm
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
5. I have led you, etc.] So Amos 2:10; cp. above Deuteronomy 2:7, Deuteronomy 8:2. I, here the speaker’s personality, is merged in that of the Deity; for other instances see on Deuteronomy 7:4. But LXX has ἤγαγεν.your clothes, etc.] Varied from Deuteronomy 8:4. With Sam. LXX read your shoes and your feet.
But lets say in spite of those verses you say that the “I AM” sayings are still different and proof of claiming to be divine. In which case I have a question for you, assuming of course you are the standard trinitarian who accepts the hypostatic union(that the person of the son took to himself a human nature and united to it with his divine nature. The natures don’t mix nor can they separated but are unified in one person who through his dual natures is fully man and fully God at all times. As some would say “100%God and 100%man 100% of the time”)
When Jesus(a.s) was presumably speaking through his divine nature when he said these words and made a claim to divinity, was he fully human at that time? And did he speak through the human nature and say these words as well? If he did say those words as a man as well then as a fully man claiming divinity would be blasphemy. If he didn’t then he stopped being fully human for that moment which of course is not acceptable in traditional Christian understanding of the incarnation and hypostatic union.
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@charleslaird
If you didn’t see my responses then fine no worries. I’m happy to discuss with you on a platform different from this blog if that makes you more comfortable though that will ultimately depend on the platform you wish to continue the discussion on. Some things I want to mention though are,
1. you keep making the point of Jesus(a.s) being worshiped in the gospels and not denying or rebuking the alleged acts and even say that no one has corrected the examples you brought. To this I must ask, did you actually read the article you are commenting on or the previous one on the topic cited in the footnotes?
2. You criticize the argumentation of saying that the gospels don’t record Jesus(a.s) as being worshiped while also saying the bible is corrupt as a stupid argument. I want to clarify the intention of the arguments. The implication is not that for example if the gospels actually did record Jesus(a.s) as saying “I am God, worship me” and people worshipped him that we would accept it and believe in it. Rather we are pointing out the oddity of some of the central doctrines of the religion such as the deity of Jesus(a.s) not being explicit. To quote the words of another Christian apologist I have spoken to before there is no “overriding emphasis” of such doctrines in the gospels. To be sure we do not believe in the bible, both OT and NT wholesale. But us deeming them unreliable does not somehow invalidate the argument of saying the doctrines you draw from them seem to not present.
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Vaqas, I’m find with this platform or even through email or whatever. I never know what people are comfortable with. I’m not really concerned with comfort for myself, because I already know I will be cussed at, yelled at, mocked. It’s all part of life of being a Christian. Atheists yell at me, telling me I’m just brainwashed to believe there is a God in the first place. You see what the Muslims here have said. Jehovah’s Witnesses tell me Jesus isn’t God, while Roman Catholics tell me, I need to pray to Mary also and Mormons tell me there are many gods and I can become one someday as well. I disagree with any type of works based religion where you one tries to outweigh their bad deeds with good ones.
You said “you keep making the point of Jesus(a.s) being worshiped in the gospels and not denying or rebuking the alleged acts and even say that no one has corrected the examples you brought. To this I must ask, did you actually read the article you are commenting on or the previous one on the topic cited in the footnotes?”
I’m making the point about Jesus being worshipped, because that is what the title of this thread is. I understand that the author was arguing with some other person that was not acting Christian (calling someone names is uncalled for and usually happens when someone believes they don’t have footing to stand on for their thesis). Calling someone Abdul in a derogatory way is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.
Admittedly, I did not read through the entire rant, because it was largely pseudo scholarship and left out pretty much all context. I saw a brief bit of the PDF and it was just a bunch of high talk and it got monotonous very quickly.. I’m already fully aware of the term proskuneo and it’s proper usage. There is an idiosyncratic usage that was glossed over, because the author of this thread reads the Bible through an exegetical lens. So, I figured I would just deal with the core component, to which I was told, not only was Jesus not worshipped in the Bible, but you are going to hell Charles and by the way, the Bible is false. I can just ignore the rude people and we can talk here. I hope that ultimately answered this first question.
Regarding your statement, prior to this first question, you speak of me making the point that Jesus was worshipped in the gospel AND that Jesus did not deny or rebuke those that worshipped him. Regarding me not seeing anyone correct the examples I brought forth – is an interesting point. When a counter point is brought up and it’s followed with, “you are heading to hell and I’m not going to join you. sorry. not sorry” – I’m just going to ignore that person and at this point disregard them as combative and not interested in having a conversation. There were just calling names and congratulating one another. I’m just fine with addressing a counterpoint, or some argument, if there is some semblance of respect. That’s a core component of my faith. I give respect until they lose it. It seems they think I have to earn it first, before they can show an ounce of kindness. So, I don’t need to continue with them. I’ve got plenty of thick skin.
You said “2. You criticize the argumentation of saying that the gospels don’t record Jesus(a.s) as being worshiped while also saying the bible is corrupt as a stupid argument. I want to clarify the intention of the arguments. The implication is not that for example if the gospels actually did record Jesus(a.s) as saying “I am God, worship me” and people worshipped him that we would accept it and believe in it. Rather we are pointing out the oddity of some of the central doctrines of the religion such as the deity of Jesus(a.s) not being explicit. To quote the words of another Christian apologist I have spoken to before there is no “overriding emphasis” of such doctrines in the gospels. To be sure we do not believe in the bible, both OT and NT wholesale. But us deeming them unreliable does not somehow invalidate the argument of saying the doctrines you draw from them seem to not present.”
When you say that “the central doctrines of the religion such as the deity of Jesus not being explicit” – are you saying that the Bible doesn’t explicitly point to Jesus being deity explicitly?
I would disagree that someone saying, explain to me why a Christian believes XYZ, because I don’t see it in the Bible, then a Christian explains it and someone dismisses it out of hand by simply saying – the Bible is corrupt, so your answer is moot. That’s just argumentative and lacking honesty. My point to them was simply, if they are just going to waste someone’s time that it takes to explain a counter argument to someone’s statement about Christian doctrine – then do that, but then one must then acknowledge that what was said may actually be true. Instead, they dodged the entire objection out of hand, by mocking and saying the Bible is false. So, that’s why I said what I said…
Are you a lifelong Muslim? You been talking to Christians long? Have any Christian friends? Have meals with Christians or Jews at all?
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@charleslaird
Very well. Then if it’s fine with you let’s keep discussing as we were on this blog post.
“I’m making the point about Jesus being worshipped, because that is what the title of this thread is.”
Respectfully, you seem to have misunderstood my question. I am not questioning why you are brining up the topic as obviously as you pointed out that is the very topic of the blog post we are commenting on. The reason I asked is because you kept brining things that article itself was commenting on and claims to have addressed and refuted. Namely the word translated as “worshipped.” You haven’t really engaged with that point. In fact the first comment you made on this post was
“You sure do talk a lot, to come to such wrong conclusions. Not only did Jesus Say, “I Am God,” he also accepted all worship. Alhamdul-Isa habibi. JesusSaidIAmGod.com Let me know if I missed anything.. 🙂.”
This did not exactly give the impression of wanting to have a discussion in good faith.
“I’m already fully aware of the term proskuneo and it’s proper usage. There is an idiosyncratic usage that was glossed over, because the author of this thread reads the Bible through an exegetical lens.”
See now going into more detail on that would be a great way to interact with the topic and be much more appreciated.
“are you saying that the Bible doesn’t explicitly point to Jesus being deity explicitly?”
Well in this case we are talking about the four gospels but yes in a general sense I don’t think the whole of the bible actually teaches the doctrine that “Jesus(a.s) is God” or deity as we would traditionally understand it or how non heretical mainstream strands of Christendom understand it and claims to be in said scriptures.
“I would disagree that someone saying, explain to me why a Christian believes XYZ, because I don’t see it in the Bible, then a Christian explains it and someone dismisses it out of hand by simply saying – the Bible is corrupt, so your answer is moot.”
I personally do not think that was what was happening but I fear going into that will side track the conversation and quite frankly they don’t need me to speak on their behalf. At the very least whenever you have the time I’d like you to respond to my earlier replies to you.
“”Are you a lifelong Muslim?”
Yes.
“You been talking to Christians long? ”
I’d say so. A reasonable amount of time or awhile to say the least.
“Have any Christian friends?”
Not at the moment no. Did when I was younger but as is usually the case grew apart and lost contact.
“Have meals with Christians or Jews at all?”
Again while I was younger. Add to that I recently developed a recurrent cough that gets worse when I eat and drink so I doubt I’d be much fun to break bread with.
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@charleslaird
” I already know I will be cussed at, yelled at, mocked. It’s all part of life of being a Christian…”
You can’t create a blog insulting other people’s religions then get mad when yours is.
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Exactly. Like most arrogant Christians, this twerp becomes a crybaby when he gets put in his place. These clowns can dish it but they can’t take it.
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@quranandbibleblog
Agreed. Not about how hard ya hit it’s about how hard ya can get hit….
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@Vaqas
“I would disagree that someone saying, explain to me why a Christian believes XYZ, because I don’t see it in the Bible, then a Christian explains it and someone dismisses it out of hand by simply saying – the Bible is corrupt, so your answer is moot.”
I personally do not think that was what was happening…
Thank you Vaqas for being able to follow a basic English conversation.
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quranandbibleblog – You seem to not understand the factual “I Am” statements that Jesus made. You say that Paul, Mark, Matthew and Luke all forgot to mention these claims. Let me help you here. It’s true, John does recount many of the “I Am” claims. One after the other. But it doesn’t seem that you actually read what I wrote in the JesusSaidIAmGod.com website. You also seemed to skim over or skip where Jesus accepts all worship, which is why I responded here in the first place.
First, Jesus said, “I AM” in the Old Testament (Exodus 3), in his pre-incarnate form. Remember, Jesus is God. Alahmd-Jesus. Moses got it. But I’m going to get to the ones you said missed Jesus being God.
Matthew 2:11 – The “wise men” came and worshipped Jesus as a young child. I don’t think Matthew forgot. But let’s see what else God had to say through Matther. Matthew 14:33 “Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him (Jesus), saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” – “THE” Son of God. Not “A”. Jesus being of the same nature, albeit also human. He didn’t use the “I AM,” but he certainly didn’t forget.
Just as the Jews went to kill Jesus in John, for claiming to be God, here too in Mark the Jews all condemned Jesus to be deserving of death. Mark 14:62 – Jesus said, “I Am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Jesus refers to his coming in Daniel 7. Only one God. Alhamdul-Isa.
And Luke you say forgot Jesus was God, with your smug LOL. Well, it appears you forgot to read Luke altogether. Luke 1, it is written in the word of God, “He (John) will turn man of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God (Who is John turning people to? 🙂 ). And he (John) will go before Him (God) in the spirit and power of Elijah (Holy Spirit) to turn the hearts of fathers to their children, and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people.” – John is making way for Jesus, who is God in the flesh. Alhamd-Jesus
You probably don’t like that though… How about as a fulfillment of prophesy? Isaiah 40:3 – A voice of one crying out – prepare the way of the Lord in the wilderness; make a straight highway for our God in the desert. Or perhaps you like this better? Malachi 3:1 – ““See, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Then the Lord you seek will suddenly come to His temple, the Messenger of the covenant you desire—see, He is coming,” says the Lord of Hosts.”
But you said, Luke, so let me play fair. There is just so much evidence to refute your claim. Later in Luke it says, “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
I know most of this probably doesn’t mean much or anything to you. You wrote someone someone else said and you are trying your best to back it up with no evidence. I understand. Just remember – there is no end to Jesus’ kingdom.
One last point. You mention Paul doesn’t say the “I Am” statement. O.K. – will deal with this last one. I don’t know why you care about Paul. Your buddy says Paul is an apostate, which is just a dumb statement. Kind of like saying, Muhammad died of natural causes.
I left Paul out of my website page about the I Am, because so many Muslims are so hung up on Paul. Paul is neither an apostate (because if he is, the so is Jesus), nor is Paul teaching something other than what Jesus taught. Paul was a Pharisee. He taught the gospel message through the lens of a Pharisee who had repented and put his faith and trust in Jesus.
So – Paul in Philippians talks of how Jesus is in the form of God and it was not robbery to consider him to be equal with God, with the caveat that he was in the flesh to serve as the final sacrifice on the cross – for our sin. Ephesians 5 – it talks of Jesus as the head of the Church – given that his followers are Christians – who follow the Christ – otherwise known as Messiah. Jesus brought the last and final message.
To your point, the I Am statement is not prevalent in texts necessarily other than John, however they did not forget Jesus was God. They confirmed it over and over and over again.
AND Jesus accepted all worship. Alhamdul-Isa
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🤣😂 Crosstian likes to rant. So you admit that the earlier sources all forgot to mention the “I am” statements, so to cope, you resort to standard Crosstian eisegesis. Amazingly, you appealed to the fake mahi story of Matthew! But that story used the word proskyneo, which was the main topic of my article in the first place!
You see, you brainwashed pagan, there are perfectly good words in Greek that you heretic authors could have used to prove that Jesus accepted “worship”. The Greek word sebo means worship given to a deity, and was never used for anything else. In contrast, the word proskyneo could be used for humans as well. In other words, a person could “bow” to another human and it didn’t mean that the former was “worshiping” the latter as a god. You’re silly, Crosstian. 🤣
As for John the Baptist, you seem to forget that John literally baptized Jesus! But Matthew changed the story to make Jesus the superior of John. Mark, on the other hand, seems to make Jesus look like a sinner! Oops! 🤣
As for Paul, the arch-heretic, he did not regard Jesus as co-equal to God. Jesus was subservient to God.
So, in the end, you are left with the contradictory gospels failing to prove that Jesus claimed to be “God” and accepted any “worship” that is due to God alone.
Too bad, pagan.
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Jesus is the one who said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” Rather than Muhammad whose dying words were, “Allah please curse the Jews and the Christians for they are praying where they bury the dead.” Which, if you look to see where Muhammad’s corpse is, they pray. Isn’t that weird…
Clarity and being rational or even kind are not either of your forte’s. Appears your hearts are hardened and I shall not cast any more pearls to you guys. I will withdraw my peace and brush the dust off at you. Despite what your heretical thoughts are and rantings, Jesus does love you. I hope one day you trust in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Alhamd-Jesus… Bye.
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😂🤣 Now the crosstian is deflecting and changing topics!
Tell me, if your Jesus was “God”, why would pray to his God to forgive his people? Didn’t he have authority to forgive sins himself??? 😂
Also, don’t you know that that verse from Luke was a later addition? Scholars of textual criticism, such as the later Bruce Metzger, explained that this was an addition by later scribes. Try again, pagan. You’re pathetic anti-Islamic tropes and apologetic deflections won’t work here.
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Run away, pagan. You’re on the path to hell. Sorry we can’t join you. Sorry, not sorry. 😉
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Muhammad as he is dying of poison, “Curse the Christians and the Jews Allah” (al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 427, al-Nasaa’i Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 704, al-Bukhari Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 414, al-Bukhari Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 472, al-Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 56, Hadith 660)
Jesus says to those who are killing him on the cross when he lays his life down for all humanity, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)
Muslims say (Pathetic trinitarians… Don’t embarrass yourself… Run away pagan, you are on a path to hell… ) – Just general hatred
Christian says (I pray for your soul. I’m so sorry you don’t desire to hear the gospel, so you can quit your works and find peace. I pray blessings of you guys. But it’s time that withdraw my peace and brush the dust off of my feet) Matthew 10:14 – “And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.”
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🤣😂 Crosstian pagan comes back to be further humiliated. You are haters of the truth, you brainless idiot. Notice how you repeated the silly claim about Jesus asking for forgiveness of his enemies. Earth to pagan Crosstian! That verse is a forgery! 🤣
Keep running and hating the truth. Hell has a nice warm place waiting for you.
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Vaqas, My apologies, I didn’t see your response, given that there is a litany of just really mean spirited hard hearted people. They are more interested in insults and throwing out easily identifiably and utterly patently false claims (5 gospels by Robert Funk – it’s based on an organization of mostly non-scholars with bad proofings)
To your questions.. Tell you what. If you’d like to talk, I’m happy to speak with you one on one. I’m just not interested in the concept of hearing anymore of the “You’re a pagan, you are going to hell. You’re a liar. Blah blah blah.” I’m happy to entertain any objections that you may have. The irony, is that although I brought up the I AM (by way of something I had already written, which included Jesus being worshipped) to this blog, the topic was about Jesus being worshipped in the gospels. That is the reason why I put the link to my site, in that there was a huge part about how many people worshipped Jesus and he did not correct them. These other guys are just all over the board and can’t seem to stay on topic. There is some irony to say “the gospels don’t say Jesus was worshipped” – but then just dismiss the gospels as being corrupt. It’s a stupid argument. Start with “the Bible is a fraud” if that’s going to be part of the conversation and then people can enter into the conversation where we can speak honestly… I just don’t have any respect for people who are just ugly spirited, nasty, rude and wholly disrespectful. It really shows the bad side of Islam, which, in my opinion is just an outworking of the character of Muhammad. it just sounds like they hate Christians and Jews (which is why I showed the al-Hadith that showed how Muhammad asked Allah to curse us) – or – who knows, maybe these guys just hate me. But Vaqas, it appears you have a valid concern and I would be happy to discuss it further. I’m however not interested in having a liar liar conversation. I research, I seek truth in all things – irrespective of where I find it. My desire is to learn all I can about Christianity and other religions, this side of the grave. So – fire away… Blessings.
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How about this? Let’s have a Zoom chat. This way, there aren’t many long comments to go through and respond to each point.
I don’t care what you think, who you “respect” etc. I have no “respect” for liars like you, who think they can bad mouth other religions and not expect a “mean spirited” response. No one cares about your idiotic opinions. Get it pagan? Now stop being a crybaby and let’s deal with the facts. Your emotional rants and crying will not help you here.
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@charleslaird
So long story short no response to why you worship a person despite the fact that the people who he lived with and taught never did. Got it.
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“Jesus is the one who said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” ”
this is what makes no sense to me, matthew is writing his account and knows that jeses has asked for “forgiveness” for the people, but instead matthew writes
25 Then the people as a whole answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”
your church fathers enjoyed using this verse
message in the torah which is repeated is :
If there is no internal repentance and commitment to change, then the physical act of offering a sacrifice is worthless.
///
so if jesus = sacrifice, then the ones sacrificing him must repent, thats how animal sacrifices go in old testament in order for yhwh to forgive the jew.
so are you telling me that the father forgave the jews and romans even when they had no internal repentance lol ?
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“Muhammad as he is dying of poison, “Curse the Christians and the Jews Allah” (al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 427, al-Nasaa’i Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 704, al-Bukhari Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 414, al-Bukhari Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 472, al-Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 56, Hadith 660)”
you moronic fristian, shame on you.
quote:
Jesus says to those who are killing him on the cross when he lays his life down for all humanity, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)
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“Muhammad as he is dying of poison, “Curse the Christians and the Jews Allah” (al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 427, al-Nasaa’i Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 704, al-Bukhari Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 414, al-Bukhari Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 472, al-Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 56, Hadith 660)”
quote :
If you would take a minute to think, before you speak, you wold have
realized that this phrase was directed to the Muslims, and how they
need to react once the Prophet leaves this world, i.e. he died. The
Prophet, whom you would like to claim as self-serving, is warning his
own ummah from falling into worshipping him, unlike the Jews and
Christians, who took to excess, and moved away from the worship of God
by worshipping their Prophets. He, even to the point of death, was
keen n preserving the tradition of monotheism that all Prophets
preached.
“Jesus says to those who are killing him on the cross when he lays his life down for all humanity,”
no, jesus BEGGED god to take the cup away from him and then like a disbeliever said “god why u forsook me”
if he is quoting the psalsm ( clearly he isnt) but lets say he is , then :
https://callingchristians.com/2012/10/10/new-covenant-old-traditions/
do not forget book of revealation and how jebus is going to show his “forgiveness” by doing violence . do not forget the failed threats of jesus in parables and his response to high priest , “you will see….”
”
“Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34)”
1. did FATHER FORGIVE?
2. if father forgave than he VIOLATED torah, because torah requires that you come with a GUILTY heart before u perform sacrifice.
3. so did father forgive, yes or no lol?
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1. “pray for those who persecute you”
if this is OPEN ended, then why is jeebs prayer missing in mark, matthew john…..lol
2. it is not open ended, then jeebs thought that those who KNOWINGLY do crime against u (JUDAS) receive no prayers…….
3. CONCLUSION :
there is no prayer for the romans or jews because the other writers thought they did know what they r doing …..
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“”I pray blessings of you guys. But it’s time that withdraw my peace and brush the dust off of my feet) Matthew 10:14 – “And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.””
you cant receive blessing from idolatry. you give your heart to idolatry and imagine one who is born of a woman created his own mum. you steal the attributes of God almighty and give them to a pagan composite godling and then celebrate and worship that godling which got sacrificed by powerful and almighty human sins. shame on you. shame on u for prostituting your heart to other than the one who wills everything and sustains everything. shame on you.
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Lol, we don’t want his “blessings”. He thinks his emotional diarrhea will convince anyone to join his religion. 🤣
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@Charleslaird
Actually as with many points in the Bible there is completely different
stories and the idol demigod is alleged to have said:
‘My God! My God why have you forsaken me?”
Real show if faith for tye person who knew this was supposed to happen. Furthermore, as a quick point tye blog you came from threw a multitude of insults out. The reason the blasphemous belief system is spoken to harshly is simply because THE IDOLATRY YOU ENGAGE IN IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING A HUMAN AN DO.You are worst than a thief, murderer or child molester and it is quite frankly sickening to see someone take something God did for them and pass the credit off to some creation of His no matter what twisted justification they use to make it okay in their mind.
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@charleslaird
“Your buddy says Paul is an apostate”
Quick note I didn’t say that, the people Jesus(as) taught and preached to said that.
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@ charleslaird
Pssst… idk if you’re a trinitarian but if you are by saying “Alhamdul-Isa” you are committing heresy in your beliefs as that means you are giving praise and thanks to Jesus(as) alone at the exclusion of the father and Holy Spirit. I just thought I take you off to the side and whisper that to you so you don’t embarrass yourself in front of everyone. So carry on
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🤣 Pathetic trinitarians think their butchering of Arabic will convince anyone to believe in their preposterous cult. 😂
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@ QB
Stop QB you weren’t supposed to hear that!
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@charleslaird
I find it disappointing that not only did you “leave” without responding to anything I wrote in response to you, but you “came back” just to once again not respond and only talk about how cursing disbelievers is wrong and how Jesus(a.s) asked for forgiveness for his enemies while supposedly on the cross. Those words were already being called into question but lets say for the sake of argument that they were authentic, who do you think the prayer of forgiveness is referring to?
Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
“Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.–Again, the silence is broken, not by the cry of anguish or sigh of passionate complaint, but by words of tenderest pity and intercession. It is well, however, that we should remember who were the primary direct objects of that prayer. Not Pilate, for he knew that he had condemned the innocent; not the chief priests and scribes, for their sin, too, was against light and knowledge. Those for whom our Lord then prayed were clearly the soldiers who nailed Him to the cross, to whom the work was but that which they were, as they deemed, bound to do as part of their duty.”
Also keep in mind of course that this prayer of forgiveness on the cross is obviously taking place after the supposed cursing of the fig tree. Now unless you want to argue that Jesus(a.s) was just really angry at the tree the mainstream interpretation is that the fig tree is a symbol of Israel.
In other words even if we take those words as accurate they do not contradict the words of prophet Muhammad(s.a.w) as they are speaking of two different categories of people. Those who who sin either in ignorance or are forced to, and those who sin or reject the truth with free volition.
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@charleslaird
Apologies, I seem to replied to the wrong comment chain. I will post the reply I made to the other one to this one that contained the comment I was responding to. Apologies again for the confusion, making my replies hard to see or respond to, or spamming the same comment again.
If you didn’t see my responses then fine no worries. I’m happy to discuss with you on a platform different from this blog if that makes you more comfortable though that will ultimately depend on the platform you wish to continue the discussion on. Some things I want to mention though are,
1. you keep making the point of Jesus(a.s) being worshiped in the gospels and not denying or rebuking the alleged acts and even say that no one has corrected the examples you brought. To this I must ask, did you actually read the article you are commenting on or the previous one on the topic cited in the footnotes?
2. You criticize the argumentation of saying that the gospels don’t record Jesus(a.s) as being worshiped while also saying the bible is corrupt as a stupid argument. I want to clarify the intention of the arguments. The implication is not that for example if the gospels actually did record Jesus(a.s) as saying “I am God, worship me” and people worshipped him that we would accept it and believe in it. Rather we are pointing out the oddity of some of the central doctrines of the religion such as the deity of Jesus(a.s) not being explicit. To quote the words of another Christian apologist I have spoken to before there is no “overriding emphasis” of such doctrines in the gospels. To be sure we do not believe in the bible, both OT and NT wholesale. But us deeming them unreliable does not somehow invalidate the argument of saying the doctrines you draw from them seem to not present.
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Yup, looks like they are just deleting my comments now.. fun times..
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No one is deleting your comments, you liar.
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What comments did you submit, liar? I see nothing from you today, not even in the “Trashed” folder where deleted comments would normally go. So are you pretending that you made phantom comments that got magically deleted?
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Vaqas, If you’d like.. email me at charlesinbedford@gmail.com
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@QB
More Christian persecution myths? 🤔
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@charleslaird
I don’t know if you simply having a reading comprehension issue as I used more than Robert Funk (which again if you actually read the book you could see the argument for each verse bit I digress)
I have no desire to engage in “is your text corrupt” anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of textual criticism can see that. I am attacking your central doctrine of a demigod by bringing up that we know as well fact the Jerusalem Church did not worship Jesus(as). That alone is enough to end the discussion.
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“you keep making the point of Jesus(a.s) being worshiped in the gospels and not denying or rebuking the alleged acts and even say that no one has corrected the examples you brought”
obviously jesus in nt didnt take it as worship, but if we go by the reasoning of the chris-tian , then we have a problem:
“The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. ”
he is teaching this in the synagouge and is not DENYING or rebuking canabalism:
“Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him.”
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” Before we get into the main topic, it is quite comical that this obvious fan of “Christian Prince” refers to Muslims as “Abduls”, as if it is an insult. Though it is not my actual name, I am proud to call myself Abdullah, the slave/servant of Allah. ”
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxze4qXGbG7ZLAiDmq8TZxwh1SEHimFHGM
Good.discussion
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