New Video: The Boredom of the Dark Side | Muhammad vs Jesus | Part 2 | Episode 8

Padawans, I am bored with Darth Hammer. This video will provide refutations of some of the remaining claims against Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that Darth Hammer made in his video “Muhammad vs Jesus”. The remaining claims will be refuted in the next video, which will close out the series. Darth Hammer and the Dark Side are finished. I need to move on to bigger and better things, inshaAllah.

118 thoughts on “New Video: The Boredom of the Dark Side | Muhammad vs Jesus | Part 2 | Episode 8

  1. Sven

    Consider the following: both your books are manmade nonsense. Abrahamic religions view life as a game (resist temptation island) where you can score divine points in several ways (after submitting to god ofcourse, he is very vain and will torture anyone who doesn’t regonize his greatness for all eternity) and you get your eternal reward (consisting of lounging on green cushions with a flowing river of wine to the side and a bunch big eyed “companions” for your pleasure) .. or eternal torture by god.

    Does that really make sense to you? You’ve done good, you’re in heaven (not thinking about the billions of people burning in hell, you after all made a blog warning them!), nipping some wine, fondling your companions in some drugged up state of eternal bliss and.. that’s it? That’s the “explaination” for life? Are you REALLY stupid or naive enough to believe that?

    “The easy confidence with which I know another man’s religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also” is a quote I often think about browsing this blog. Oh you muslims and christians really deserve eachother.

    Peace.

    Like

    1. Lol, a guy with literally no reason to even exist is talking about the meaning of “life”. 🤣

      You understanding of “Abrahamic religions”, let alone Islam, is flawed and laughable at best. The fact that you can only provide a strawman argument really shows how weak your argument is.

      Like

      1. Sven

        My above summary of the core values of Islam, it even goes for Christianity, is correct. Life is a game to see who can best please their narcisstic overlord. Eternal torture if you don’t. That’s the basis of Abrahamic religions.

        You have provided no counter arguments.

        Like

      2. Sven

        It is not a strawman argument, it is what Islam at it’s core boils down to. I see you struggle making arguments to the contrary, maybe you can text your more educated co operator of this website and he can try ;).

        It’s pretty basic and appeals to humans, it pretends to answer questions we don’t know the answer to. And you get rewarded with wine and titties in the afterlife, sweet!

        And ofcourse I have a reason to exist you strange man,, the same as yours, evolution. Don’t muslims think the Qu’ran supports evolution? I can see how “god made man out of clay” is totally supporting of evolution, another islamic miracle 😉 !

        Like

      3. 🤣 Darwin be praised! Everything came from nothing!

        I love when mindless atheists believe in the biggest fairytale of them all and then think they have something against theists. Did you see Aron Ra get blasted a few days ago by some Muslims? That was embarrassing! 😂

        Keep exposing your primitive understanding. It makes it easier for me.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Sven

    I still see no refutation of my summary of Islam, and I don’t know who Aron Ra is and thus didn’t see him “get blasted by some muslims”. I thought we were discussing our ideas on religion, but I take ityou are more of a “here’s a link to youtub eyo watch thise” kind of guy?

    The theory of evolution is based on scientifc research. Doesn’t claim to be perfect, doesn’t claim to explain everything,The quran is a book that claims to be ghost written by god, with no further proof of that. Islamic miracles are a joke, and even the people promoting them have started seeing that. Believing in one or the other is not the same.

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    1. 🤣 Still not getting it! There’s nothing to refute when all you have are personal opinion, dummy!

      Again, know your place cretin. I’m not “discussing” with you. I’m toying with you because I think you’re a joke.

      You see, unlike you, I actually bother to study and do research. Clowns like you spend their time thinking people care about your opinions. 😂

      Like

      1. Sven

        Theology in general is nothing but personal (human) opinion on religion. Plus if you get this upset if people use the comment function to give.. their personal opinion on religion, yet still feel to need to reply but apparently feel too superior to actually engage I don’t know what the point of this is either.

        At any rate, I’m getting more insults and emojis out of you than original thoughts or clever insights. Good luck with your battles against ze christians, be careful you don’t convert them all to Islam. That way you don’t get that Avengers Endgame fight with christian armies and muslim armies kinda joining up and jesus coming down.

        Like

  3. Sven

    Also kinda unrelated, but I’m suprised to find a devout muslim who spends a lot of time defending his religion.. not believing in evolution? Didn’t you get the memo that “nothing in the Quran denies the existance of evolution” etc etc, the whole evolutionary creationism thing?

    I mean sure, kind of an oversight by god to not put anything about evolution in the quran (too busy writing verses saying people should leave the prophet alone in his house when he wants to chill, but he shy so doesn’t want to say it :’) ).

    But you can only deny science for so long or you’ll just look like a .. flatearther at some point. You don’t believe in evolution, god made some people out of clay and they were exactly like the people around us look right away? Come on bro, just cope by saying those first creations where monkeys 😉

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    1. stewjo004

      @ Sven

      You clearly don’t know about evolution as well with this statement:

      “just cope by saying those first creations where monkeys 😉”

      Ignoring your grammar issue (it should be “were” btw) Evolution doesn’t state we evolved from monkeys.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sven

        It was a light hearted comment at the end, obviously evolution doesn’t start with monkeys. Between that and pointing out grammar mistakes, in my second language no less, think I overestimated the level of discussion, let alone insight, to be had here.

        Like

      2. stewjo004

        @ Sven

        Could care less if this is your second language we are speaking English and it is a mistake. Next, there is a respectful way to gain insight in the discussion, you ignored that and decided to go the douce route instead so don’t get mad at the response from the opposing. I’ll teach you a little English saying to help you out in your quest to grasp the language:

        “Give respect and you’ll get respect”

        Now if you would like to start over and come correct all is well, otherwise expect to be mocked and ridiculed.

        Liked by 2 people

  4. stewjo004

    @Sven

    Alright, the 1,000,000$ question for all of your types:

    Since you don’t believe in a Creator, did you create yourself, or where you created from nothing?

    To save time yes evolution blah, blah, blah skip to the end, the starting point was…(fill in the blank and try not to kill yourself as you inevitably become depressed at your existence)

    Like

    1. Sven

      Ah, the cavalary has arrived! We don’t know Stewjo, that’s why religion (all different types! There have been so many religions pre and post Islam) has always had a huge appeal to humans. Answers to questions we don’t know, be it “why does lightning happen” to “what happens after we die” or “who made us/earth”.

      The universe is unbelievable big, where do we come from where do we go? I don’t pretend to know. Accepting you don’t know is better than believing fairytales that make you feel good. I dont know why you think that’s depressing, I think it’s more depressing to look at life as this game to please your maker.

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      1. stewjo004

        @ Sven

        Also thank you for exposing your complete ignorance of Islamic theology by stating:

        “here have been so many religions pre and post Islam”

        As if this was some deep “gotcha!” moment. Islam already answers this point in its belief system. Sooooo yeah pretty embarrassing to even argue this.

        Liked by 2 people

  5. Sven

    Haha you guys got nothing, and deep down probably even mad my summary of what Abrahamic religions are all about is correct. You shine more battling the christians I have to say.

    Just get on your knees for your torturing narcisst god already. Even if god was real, anyone who sends the majority of humanity to hell to get TORTURED for eternity would never be worthy of my worship anyway.

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    1. stewjo004

      @Sven

      And…who are you? What makes you think Allah needs your worship? This is what I’m talking about with thinking way too highly of yourself.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sven

        Oh no you misunderstood. I don’t not wish to worship anyone that send a signficant portion (and I’m wording it kindly here!) to hell for ETERNAL TORTURE because they didn’t praise him enough.

        That’s narcisstic psychopathic behaviour. I’m not interested in worshipping morally deranged psychopaths to get my chance at a heaven that’s run by the same deranged psychopath. So that makes me a double atheist: I’m strongly convinced god doesn’t exist and y’all are keeping yourself busy with adult fairtytales. If he does happen to exist.. he’s a weirdo who loves torture.

        What, I’m supposed to wine it up in heaven while a sigfinicant portion of humanity suffers in hell for all eternity? Not for me bro.

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      2. stewjo004

        @ Sven

        Well if you die on these beliefs you don’t have to worry about it, at all. So going by your last comment you are opting for staying on the douche route, correct?

        Liked by 2 people

      3. mr.heathcliff

        “anyone who sends the majority of humanity to hell to get TORTURED for eternity would never be worthy of my worship anyway.”

        as an atheist , why u make your existence worthy to suffer on earth when atheists say that the earth wants to kill us. since u r ignorant of tommorow, you dont know the unforseen suffering which maybe heaped on u.

        on a hypothetical, if u were given a chance to return to earth and live for a 1000 yrs would u still say “i dont want to worship a god who tortures for all eternity”

        Liked by 2 people

  6. Sven

    Islam is just another attempt at explaining things we don’t know stewj00. The fact that the quran speaks of other religions doesn’t say anything, and definitely doesn’t prove a divine author.

    Do you got anything to add on my summary of Arbrahamic religion, i.e. my original comment?

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      1. Sven

        The rational thinker route my friend, not the douche route or blindly accept anything your told one. God doesn’t exist and if the God as described to us in the quran or bible is real he’s a narcisstic psychopath who loves torturing people.

        If you have something insightful to add I’ll happily read it. I insult the believes, not the man.

        Like

      2. stewjo004

        @ Sven
        One can disagree with a viewpoint without insulting said beliefs. I am not asking you to blindly follow, Islam is very big on using one’s intellect to know its the truth as we believe it to be self-evident. However this sentence for example:

        “… if the God as described to us in the quran or bible is real he’s a narcisstic psychopath who loves torturing people.”

        Is not necessary and is going to poison the discussion at its foundation. as now I am going to insult and now we go back and forth trading quips. One can give the same objection respectfully like:

        “In Islam why does God torture for eternity? Is it really necessary just because people didn’t worship Him? This has always been something that has bothered me in the Abrahamic religions.”

        Now your objection can be thought about and given a meaningful response. again you are free to have your objections and I encourage them but there is a respectful way to express them is all I’m saying.

        Liked by 2 people

  7. Caliph ibn mumthaz

    @sven
    “I insult the believes, not the man.”
    Bruh you literally started this whole thing by calling us stupid or naive for believing in a paradise as a reward for our actions in this life.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Sven

      I asked if you guys are really that stupid or naive. I believe you aren’t,, but somehow in the mind of the religious – as far as I can tell – religion is beyond the reach of rational thinking.

      I just read some of the hadith justification stuff and you have a clearly educated person advocating that why yes, god did turn some people into frogs and lizards.

      That is painful to me. You know how hard you’d laugh at those stories if they where Hindu or whatever?

      Furthermore I find the tone of my comments broadly in line with the battles I’ve seen betweeen christians and muslims in the comment section here 😉

      Like

      1. 🤣 Now you’re just lying! So you think religious people aren’t stupid after all? Oh thank you Mr. Sven. We needed your endorsement…NOT!

        Tell me. Why is not possible for an educated person like myself to believe that, if God wanted, He could turn sinners into lizards or whatever animal He wanted? You do know that we believe is All-powerful right?

        So beyond your idiotic opinions, do you have an actual argument to make? So far, I’ve seen nothing tangible. Just a bunch “this is stupid because I said so”. You can understand I already that you’re a joke. 😉

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  8. Sven

    Fair question for sure. The God figure as presented to us in pretty much both holy books, but I’ll focus on the Quran for this, is:

    Narcissistic: tons of rituals designed with the specific purpose of praising/worshipping him. Five times a day on the ground for him I mean, really? People got stuff to do you know. Imagine your wife asked you to give her a shoulder rub five days a day, on your bike you self obsessed woman.

    Psychopathic: I’m not sure how you can interpret Islam any other way than this: it’s possible to be a good person (in a humanistic sense i.e. unassuming towards people regardless of their religion, orientation or gender,kind, helpful, support animals etc etc) but still get send to hell for not believing in God and the last day. (2:39, 2:88, 2:98, 2:104.. etc)

    Think of a buddhist girl who’s been in contact with muslim people, maybe even read a bit of the quran but decided it wasn’t for her. She sticks with the religion of her parents, something I suppose most people on earth do. But she ran a childrens orphanage and was nothing but kind, respectful and helpful towards people. She goes to hell right? I think it’s beautiful if you believe she doesn’t , but at the same time you can also not deny there a lot of muslims who would disagree with the “buddhist girl who’s been in contact with islam but remains buddhist yet still gets to heaven” narrative.

    Who likes torturing people:

    https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:398

    Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “The least tortured man on the Day of Resurrection is one underneath whose feet will be placed two live coal, and his brain will be boiling, and he would think that he is the most tortured, while he is the least tortured”.

    And thats basic, entry level punishment.

    I mean, we can go the whole I quote a hadith, you tell me it’s out of context or weak route here but surely you agree hell is all about hellfire, brimstone, your face on fire, hot coal between your feet, brain boiling? Getting send to an empty room for all eternity would brutal punishment but God really goes the extra mile with the whole eternally on fire theme. You’re already in hell, it’s already shit, what’s up with the constant torture God? You get off on it?

    A worldly justice system where criminals get thrown in jail to be tortured constantly would be considered mindblowingly inhuman by our standards. God apparently does this – at the very least – to a significant portion of the population forever and he gets, so the quran tells us, the title “The Merciful”? Doesn’t compute for me.

    The extra kicker is that God apparently has made disbelievers such as myself ” Deaf, dumb and blind.” (2:17 – 18) and know (at least some) are impossible to be converted “Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see, Deaf, dumb and blind.” (2:6-7).

    But STILL finds it neccesary to send them, or myself if you will, to hell. People he made that way, but still get send for eternal hellfire. Again, seems like torturing people for eternity is just something he .. does?

    My apologies for the wall of text. I do enjoy my religious discussions from time to time.

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  9. Sven

    @quranandbibleblog
    And why did God just kinda stop doing those kind of weird magic tricks to directly interfer with life on earth? Turning some Shia into lizards would certainly send a messag about which sect he prefers.

    Like

    1. Again, why do you presume to know what God should or shouldn’t do? Oh, I see. Personal opinion, right? You do realize your opinions were the same ones that God already refuted when He revealed the Quran 1400 years ago?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sven

        And you don’t have any opinions yourself on the behaviour displayed by god in your holy book of choice? Like “oh, that does seem a bit cruel I can see what you’re saying but I think God does that / says that because…” or that “yeah that sounds harsh and wicked but I think it only counted for people and from a certain time period”.

        See for example my post at 7:37 AM. Your thoughts on what you think will happen – according to your understanding of your own faith – to my hypothetical Buddhist girl in the afterlife?

        And if you’re just like “that’s up to God”. If God sends her to hell, would that bother you on any level?

        Like

      2. Lol, God is all-knowing and all-wise. We are not arrogant to the point of thinking that if God does something, we can presume to judge whether it was right or wrong. If God sends that girl to hell, it means she deserved it. Who are you to know what was in her mind? God only sends those who deserve hell to it because He knows what people’s intentions are.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Sven

        I don’t think the question really resonates with you because indeed, everything God does is perfect and just and merciful by definition right? It’s god doing it after all.

        I can see how with that mindset my question is futile vanity at best, and probably absurd. While I try to show that for an ALLEDGELY infinitely powerful, merciful, knowledgeable being this “God” as described to us in the Qu’ran surely is making some funky moves. If we take the rules given to us by the Quran this hypothetical buddhist girl of mine will , by our understanding, burn forever in hell. How can an alledgely merciful being do this?

        that thought might lead to the question, hey are we sure this book is ACTUALLY coming from god? Did muhammed really talk to angels or is it just faking it? But yeah. Islamic miracles and all that I guess right?

        Again, I know the “alledgely” part never comes into question for you so we’re just talking past eachother.

        Like

  10. mr.heathcliff

    “Narcissistic: tons of rituals designed with the specific purpose of praising/worshipping him. Five times a day on the ground for him I mean, really? People got stuff to do you know. Imagine your wife asked you to give her a shoulder rub five days a day, on your bike you self obsessed woman.”

    there are a million people who happily enjoy putting their head on the floor for the one who owns every subatomic particle. in and outside of obligatory “rituals” one still sings His praises, whats your problem? “people got stuff to do you know” like living your atheistic ritual life ?

    Liked by 1 person

  11. mr.heathcliff

    ” unassuming towards people regardless of their religion, orientation or gender,kind, helpful, support animals etc etc) but still get send to hell for not believing in God and the last day. (2:39, 2:88, 2:98, 2:104.. etc)”

    you are a moron, you are disregarding the existence of the one who brought you into existence. how would it be just to place such a person in heaven?

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Sven

      Okay, so you think it’s just that our Buddhist girl gets send to hell then right? She THOUGHT she believed in the being who brought her into the world (Buddha) , but she was wrong. And some people in her life did tell her she was wrong but she didnt believe them, she went with the stories she’s been sold since she was little.

      Eternal hell justified for her according to the Quran. How can a being doing that call itself Merciful and just?

      Like

      1. mr.heathcliff

        “Eternal hell justified for her according to the Quran. How can a being doing that call itself Merciful and just?”

        Who told you God is merciful to those He will burn in the depths of hell?
        God Calls Himself one who is severe in punishment

        God mercy is heaven, your existence on earth, the guidance he provided you. your ability to breath, this is mercy from Him.

        “She THOUGHT she believed in the being who brought her into the world (Buddha) , but she was wrong. ”

        God on day of judgement looks at all the circumstances of this lady , if she was an arrogant little scum bag, then she pays for her crimes. Buddha himself was a CREATION OF GOD, how could that which is brought into existence be her creator?

        Liked by 1 person

      2. mr.heathcliff

        “Eternal hell justified for her according to the Quran. How can a being doing that call itself Merciful and just?”

        We do say “God is identical to His mercy” this is nonsense. God has many attributes. God is just,He knows all circumstances, situations, conditions .

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Sven

      “God on day of judgement looks at all the circumstances of this lady , if she was an arrogant little scum bag, then she pays for her crimes.”

      On what verses and/or hadidth do you base your opinion that for a Buddhist girl who got in contact with Islam but didn’t go with it God “looks at the circumstances of this lady”? That the amount of arrogance a disbeliever shows gets weighted in God’s judgement? Are you implying that there is anything in islam that says that someone that’s both non muslim and “not of the book” has a chance of going to heaven? And sure I sound like a smartass again but really, all I ever heard from muslims was “muslims go to heaven if good behaviour, christians maybe, jews ufh, MAYBEMAYBE but the rest: denied.” Plenty of quranic verses to support this, don’t you agree with it?

      It is this not being judged on your actions but there always HAS to be an element of complete worship and submission that doesn’t resonate with me at all. It seems ridiciliously vain for a being that’s touted as being literally all that., Your parents don’t want you to WORSHIP them but they created you.

      How blessed are the people in the rainforest that never seen a preacher or iman, actually being judged for your actions instead of their adherence to abritary rituals 😉

      Like

      1. mr.heathcliff

        “On what verses and/or hadidth do you base your opinion that for a Buddhist girl who got in contact with Islam but didn’t go with it God “looks at the circumstances of this lady”? ”

        so you never came across islamic texts which state no one will be treated unjustly ?

        “There are four (who will protest) to God on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between messengers). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.” (Authentic Hadith narrated by Ahmad and Ibn Hibban).

        “That the amount of arrogance a disbeliever shows gets weighted in God’s judgement? ”

        his/her arrogance led to rejection of God.

        “Are you implying that there is anything in islam that says that someone that’s both non muslim and “not of the book” has a chance of going to heaven? ”

        no, i didn’t imply that. i implied, what legitimate excuses will they have on day of judgement considering the circumstances, conditions and situations they were in .

        “It is this not being judged on your actions but there always HAS to be an element of complete worship and submission that doesn’t resonate with me at all.”

        i dont care how you feel about the one who bring into existence all subatomic particles from the islamic paradigm

        It seems ridiciliously vain for a being that’s touted as being literally all that., Your parents don’t want you to WORSHIP them but they created you.”

        imagine you reject your parents existence in an arrogant way and give thanks to other than your parents.

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      2. Sven

        “the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between messengers). T”

        Yeah and the fifth one, the one who read it and didn’t believe it. Eternal hell for questioning. That is what a so called infinitely wise being does? Sending down an arabic book for the whole wide world?

        “his/her arrogance led to rejection of God.”

        Skipping over that the majority of people on earth stick with the religion they got raised with. Has nothing to do with arrogance, Just the stories you get told since you were little, your families and friends influence etc massively influence people believes. It shows your deep closedmindedness if you think “arrogance” is the reason smart / kind people come to reject islam. Sounds weird if you didn’t grow up to it for most, can you imagine being a non muslim and reading through the collection of hadiths on this website?

        “no, i didn’t imply that. i implied, what legitimate excuses will they have on day of judgement considering the circumstances, conditions and situations they were in”

        Thanks for just being honest about this then, non muslims / people of the book don’t go to heaven in the common understanding of muslims. God sends vasts of amounts of humanity to eternal hell.

        “i dont care how you feel about the one who bring into existence all subatomic particles from the islamic paradigm”

        I’m afraid I don’t think he did any of that. Can’t be the same guy who’s worried about what animals to eat and what hand to wipe with.

        “imagine you reject your parents existence in an arrogant way and give thanks to other than your parents.”

        Not worshipping your parents does not equal “rejecting your parents existence in an arrogant way”. Loving and worshipping are different things. Grey areas my friend. Not like “not people of the book = no heaven”.

        Like

      3. mr.heathcliff

        “Yeah and the fifth one, the one who read it and didn’t believe it. Eternal hell for questioning.”

        God could have started that guy off in eternal hell he wouldnt have any arguments against Him.

        ” That is what a so called infinitely wise being does? Sending down an arabic book for the whole wide world?”

        What an idiot you are. Islam has been making arguments for itself in LANGUAGES ALL OVER THE world, didn’t God say in the book to explain it to the world? that itself is a mercy.

        “his/her arrogance led to rejection of God.”

        “Skipping over that the majority of people on earth stick with the religion they got raised with.”

        In Quran (17:15), “We never punish until we have sent a Messenger.” Who is this Messenger? Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.

        ” Has nothing to do with arrogance, Just the stories you get told since you were little, your families and friends influence etc massively influence people believes. It shows your deep closedmindedness if you think “arrogance” is the reason smart / kind people come to reject islam.”

        WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOU MORON?

        “no, i didn’t imply that. i implied, what legitimate excuses will they have on day of judgement considering the circumstances, conditions and situations they were in”

        “I’m afraid I don’t think he did any of that. Can’t be the same guy who’s worried about what animals to eat and what hand to wipe with.”

        A GOD WHO CARES about every detail of His creation is greater than a god who lets his own creation self destruct.

        WHAT A moron like you is missing is that we believe in physical and METAPHYSICAL world.

        you are not looking at things from the islamic paradigm, when that is show, you say “prove it” thats called shifting the goal post.

        “imagine you reject your parents existence in an arrogant way and give thanks to other than your parents.”

        Not worshipping your parents does not equal “rejecting your parents existence in an arrogant way”.

        when did i say that shven?

        Like

    1. mr.heathcliff

      “It seems ridiciliously vain for a being that’s touted as being literally all that., Your parents don’t want you to WORSHIP them but they created you.”

      “Not worshipping your parents does not equal “rejecting your parents existence in an arrogant way”. Loving and worshipping are different things. Grey areas my friend. Not like “not people of the book = no heaven”.

      1. your parents are created.
      2. lets say that your parrents created you , provided for you, and guided you, you start thanking your dog instead for deeds of your.creators, what would this mean to you? lets say instead of loving your parents(you dont even believe they exist) you start loving your dog.and your desires, what would this mean to you?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sven

        “Lets say instead of loving your parents(you dont even believe they exist) you start loving your dog.and your desires, what would this mean to you?”

        Lol rejecting Islam or any other Abrahamic religion does not lead to “loving your dog and your desires”. I respect and love my parents because they are my parents. I also for a fact know they are my parents, as opposed to my skeptism towards god’s existence. I don’t worship them, they’re flawed humans like everyone.

        Also the point of my questions is to get answers for questions that for you guys have long been answered. God existing, and ofcourse the one as described in your holy book doesn’t get debated.

        If we’re at this point talking about loving your parents it’s all good. Bit of love for your dog too tho, loyal loveable beasts that they are, they keep both angels and burglars out of the house. Imagine supporting a religion that hates dogs, who hates dogs bro? God. Why? Says so in the Quran. Who said God wrote the Quran? It says so in the Quran 😀

        Like

      2. Sven

        “lets say instead of loving your parents(you dont even believe they exist) you start loving your dog.and your desires, what would this mean to you?”

        Also replying to comments like this (i don’t think my parents exist what?). Not worshipping your parents does not give them the right to torture you. Which is what god does with his hell setup.

        The original discussion for you.

        Like

      3. mr.heathcliff


        Lol rejecting Islam or any other Abrahamic religion does not lead to “loving your dog and your desires”.”

        okay then, tell me what it leads to then, u currently dont believe in god and u think that there is no judgement for the stuff u do on earth, yet you live on an earth which according to atheists wants to kill us,so what does this lead to ?

        “I respect and love my parents because they are my parents.”

        thats because you are selfish, you feel good in doing action x, thats purely for selfish reasons. its making u feel good.

        “they are my parerents” no, they are your VESSELS which brought u into a place which is trying to kill u every day and chance which is trying for your destruction.

        you just self who wants to FEEL good for your selfish reasons.

        Like

  12. mr.heathcliff

    “Lol rejecting Islam or any other Abrahamic religion does not lead to “loving your dog and your desires”. I respect and love my parents because they are my parents. I also for a fact know they are my parents, as opposed to my skeptism towards god’s existence”

    you said a, i addressed a, then you brought in b. when things get addressed from the islamic paradigm , you shift goal posts and start talking about what you know.

    Like

    1. Sven

      As if you are not cherry picking parts of my comments yourself. You shift the discussion to dogs and parents lol. You are a believer, that’s all.

      Like

      1. Vaqas Rehman

        @Sven

        “I respect and love my parents because they are my parents.”

        By that same token wouldn’t you agree that just as you should love and respect your parents by virtue of the fact that they are your parents, you should also love and respect your God by virtue of the fact that he is your God? Assuming of course in this scenario that He exists to you.

        Like

      2. Sven

        @Vaqas

        Not loving or respecting your parents does NOT give them a right to lock you up and torture you.

        Not worshipping the Abrahamic god leads to exactly that: him torturing you in his personal penal colony called hell. Wicked, cruel behaviour since god does this – in the mainstream explaination of Islam that holds only people of the book qualify for heaven – to vast amounts of humans.

        Who’s only moral “crime” would be not accepting Allah and the last day.

        Like

      3. mr.heathcliff

        “Assuming of course in this scenario that He exists to you.”

        there was no question of proof of existence here, the moron wanted to know why thing x in your religion. when he was told, he shifted the goal post to “prove it”
        thats changing the argument

        Like

      4. mr.heathcliff

        “Not loving or respecting your parents does NOT give them a right to lock you up and torture you.”

        so do you have a problem with torture or eternal torture?
        what should your parents give you then? a rose every time you say that they don’t exist?
        should your parents reward you like they reward a child who does believe in their existence and give them a SERVICE of works and love?

        Like

      5. mr.heathcliff

        “Not worshipping the Abrahamic god leads to exactly that: him torturing you in his personal penal colony called hell.”

        whats your problem there are cool parts to it.

        “Wicked, cruel behaviour since god does this”

        if x were given a chance to return to the earth and for 1000 yrs continue to gas ppl, i guess to you his crime of murder and disbelief would not be an eternal crime, but in Gods eyes it may well be.

        So now explain how it is wicked and cruel

        ” – in the mainstream explaination of Islam that holds only people of the book qualify for heaven – to vast amounts of humans.”

        first of all what is your problem? is your problem with torture by fire? eternal torture? torturing a number of people ?

        what is giving u an itchy ass, please tell

        Like

      6. stewjo004

        @ Sven

        “Who’s only moral “crime” would be not accepting Allah and the last day.”

        That actually is a HUGE crime, you didn’t give the rights due to the one who created you after saying you would.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Sven

      Lol nothing is giving me an “itchy ass”, i pity the religious for leading their life based on baseless concepts they read about in a book. You believe in all these magical invisible forces and creatures (jhinn, angels). It’s delusion.

      I just want you to acknowledge you worship a cruel god, one that tortures massive amounts of people, yet still dons himself the Merciful. For a critical thinking person that might open some doors in his mind like wait, none of this makes sense for a just, all knowing, loving merciful god to do.

      Could it..all be nonsense ? Nahhh, that’s just the bible 😉

      Also to stay on topic (we discussing star wars vs Jesus right?) : Good good, let the anger flow through you. It wouldn’t sting if there wasn’t any truth to it always remember.

      Like

  13. stewjo004

    @ Sven

    To start breaking down objections:

    1.Narcissistic:
    Your argument is flawed as you believe He needs you in the discussion (and is somewhat ironic on the narcissim). God provides everything for you and is asking for you to show some gratitude. The best argument made using your analogy (and to God belong the best of examples) is if you worked all day and then your wife called you “needy” for asking for a thank you.

    2.Psychopathic:
    Why is this hypothetical “good person” doing good in your example? The deeds people do is irrelevant is the intent behind the deed. The Prophet(saw) said “All actions are by their intentions” Real story had an atheist boss who talked about how “good ” a person he is yada yad yada and how he helped this person with their stuff at Home Depot asked him the why and he said because he wanted them to hurry up. That is not “good” and he received what he intended in this case the person’s haste.

    Final points on this:
    A. If we go with the position they are punished for eternity it is because they intended to do evil for all eternity (6:27)

    B.There is a scholarly position Hell is not forever and we know at the very minimum people will be released from it so this whole objection is baseless.

    3. Deaf, dumb and blind
    You should probably read more:

    “…He only misguides those who are disobedient and corrupt.” (2:26)

    A person has to have o good in them whatsoever to be misguided.

    Other points:

    A. You can’t be upset because a text is weak in our tradition. We are not bound to use it and its not authoritative to us it’s simple as that.

    Like

  14. stewjo004

    @sven (pt 2)

    1. And why did God just kinda stop doing those kind of weird magic tricks to directly interfer with life on earth? Turning some Shia into lizards would certainly send a messag about which sect he prefers.

    These were not “entertainment” things, miracles were for the purpose of establishing prophethood, since there are no more prophets that means…(fill in the blank)

    2. “On what verses and/or hadidth do you base your opinion that for a Buddhist girl who got in contact with Islam but didn’t go with it God “looks at the circumstances of this lady”?”

    “Whoever holds onto guidance does so for their own good; and whoever gets lost does so at their own peril. No soul will bear another’s burden, nor is it My way to punish until I’ve sent a Messenger. (17:15)

    Also this hadith:
    https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7508

    The man in this hadith actually said a statement of blasphemy by saying if he burns his body God can’t bring him back to life but God still forgave him as he sid it out of ignorance. Each person is judged individually depending on their circumstances in life.

    Other proof can be established from ahadith such as:

    Narrated ‘Ali:
    That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “The pen has been lifted from three; for the sleeping person until he awakens, for the boy until he becomes a young man and for the mentally insane until he regains sanity.”

    or

    Imam Ahmad reported from Al-Aswad bin Sari’ that the Messenger of Allah said,
    There are four who will present their case on the Day of Resurrection: a deaf man who never heard anything, an insane man, a very old and senile man, and a man who died during the Fatrah. As for the deaf man, he will say, “O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.” As for the insane man, he will say, “O Lord, Islam came and the young boys were throwing camel dung at me.” As for the senile man, he will say, “O Lord, Islam came and I did not understand anything.” As for the one who died during the Fatrah, he will say, “O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.” Allah will accept their pledge of obedience to Him, then He will send word to them that they should enter the Fire. By the One in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them

    3. “People of the Book”

    You should probably study more instead of talking as “people of the book” also according to scholarly position includes “those trying to look for God” the proof is in the “Sabian” while some link this to the Mandaeans the meaning “is to turn away” (and this is hat pagans commonly called Muslims) Basically these people “turn away” from mainstream religion and just do their best with wat they ko

    Like

    1. Sven

      Part two

      1. But i question the prophethood of Mohammed, and all I get is a book to read. One i get told I can only truly understand if I speak a difficult to learn foreign language! If the Shia/sunni rift and presence of other religions on earth 1400 years after the last prophet isn’t enough for a new one God should at least give a little magic show for the skeptics ;).

      Seriously tho, if you’re handing out very harsh punishments for rule breaking / not following rituals a wise and just divine being should make sure everyone knows and understand the rules you have to live by.

      Sending down angels to talk with one guy in a cave, having others write stuff doing in rhyming Arabic.. it’s all a bit weird and human made sounding. Why then not publish magic books yourself as god? No doubt for anyone about their origin then.

      2. See my part 1 comment. So you really believe our Buddhist girl who rejected Islam still has a shot at heaven? Ofcourse you think so in the sense that yes, because God in your mind is by definition just and righteous and thus always looks at everything.

      But this you then believe in spite of 2:62: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans – whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right – surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

      ..which implies only those get rewarded who believe in Allah and the last day first and foremost, doing right second. Those are the people who get rewarded, not Buddhist girls who after all don’t believe in Allah nor the last day.

      3. Ha, see you in heaven in (hopefully) a few decades then perhaps. Save a glass of red for me will you.

      Seriously though can you link to me about something concerning these people who turned away from mainstream religion, yet still get judged fairly for their actions by god? Sounds interesting, not something I heard about before in Abrahamic religions!

      Like

  15. One good thing I’ve learned about QB over the years is that he’s a Star Wars fanboy…his favorite character is most probably Yoda…. and that he cries everytime he hears about Order 66

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Sven

      Part 1, thanks for your time giving your viewpoints btw

      1. Does not give him the right to eternally torture people. It’s not about God needing anything from me, it’s about me not supporting anything or anyone who allegedly sends large amounts of humanity to the hellfire for eternal torture..for not recognizing his greatness/worshipping.

      Not accepting Allah or the last day leads to hell. Hell involves brutal torture on the level that makes divorcing your wife look utterly insignificant in comparison. The punishment god hands out for not accepting his greatness is so extreme that it makes him a narcissist, one to be feared.

      2. She’s doing good out of the goodness of her heart, not for external selfish reasons. She also rejected Islam for the reasons I said earlier. The thought process that God will still judge her fairly (on her actions and intentions), as opposed to harshly for not believing in Allah and the last day, is a new one to me. She doesn’t believe in Allah or the last day but still gets a shot at eternal lounging around in heaven? I don’t know any Muslims who think non Muslim (or christian, Jews at a stretch) people can go to heaven.

      And let’s then support the modern scholars that view hell as non eternal. After all a being that calls itself merciful send can impossibly send even one person to hell for eternal torture. This is the kind of religious discussion I think is interesting. Is there classical Islamic literature where hell is thought to be non eternal (i.e. non eternal for everyone in general, not specific cases)?

      3: look at these verses:

      2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.

      2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

      God “sealed their hearing and their hearts”, and then promises them “an awful doom”. God creates people a certain way, sealing hearing and hearts, and then punishes them (torture torture torture as always) afterwards. Nothing implies free will can overcome god “sealing their hearing and heart”. If god only seals the heart and hearing of people with “no good” in them, why create people with no good in them and yet still punish them afterwards?

      Other points: ofcourse, people are bad at truthfully retelling and writing down stories. Especially if that happens decades to hundreds of years later. An all knowing god should’ve known better than to rely on written down oral tradition as a major part of “his” religion.

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        @ Sven (response 3)

        1. “doesn’t have the right”
        And what doesn’t give Him the right first off? If you are a creation of His (especially a broken one) He can do whatever He wants with you. That’s like saying you don’t have a right to throw away a broken phone. You can do whatever you want with your phone because you own it. If you don’t do what you’re created for what purpose do you serve? Yes, He IS something to be feared that’s the whole point of Him warning you of what He’s capable of doing.

        2. “She’s doing good out the goodness of her heart”
        Okay so define “goodness of her heart”. Does that mean she likes to make people happy? Does that mean she likes when people compliment her about how good a person she is? Nobody does something just to do it, there is intent to all actions. Even in those above examples, she got what she intended in that situation, this woman in this vague example of yours did not do something for God so why should she be rewarded by Him? That’s like saying I worked a 40 hr shift at Mcdonald’s and then go to Burger King for my pay. God gives people what they work for (53:39)

        3. “Is there classical Islamic literature about Hell not being eternal”
        First off the position is not “modern” you have “disciples” of the Prophet Muhammad’s(saw) like ‘Umar bin Khattab, ibn Mas’ud, Abu Hurairah, Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri arguing this as well as Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) and his student Ibn Qayyum(rh) (both from the Middle Ages) arguing this (and in my opinion, they make some very solid points but I’m not 100% convinced just yet) here is Ib Taymiyyah beginning his arguments on pg 6:

        Click to access Response-to-Those-Who-Say-that-Heaven-Hell-Will-Pass-Away-1.pdf

        4. “2:6-7”
        You are quoting one ayah at the expense of another that says He does this to the disobedient and corrupt. The “seal” happens after they make their choice (not free choice is more accurate a description, not free will as will implies you could change an outcome) For example the context of 2:6-7 is for the pagans of Mecca who rejected all things, Islam, after THIRTEEN YEARS of preaching. This isn’t about you or grandma down the street. They were hostile, torturing and hated everything about Islam. god did not force them to choose this path, they did. Once theey made the choice God sealed them into the choice to go down it to the end.

        5. “ofcourse, people are bad at truthfully retelling and writing down stories. Especially if that happens decades to hundreds of years later. An all knowing god should’ve known better than to rely on written down oral tradition as a major part of “his” religion.”

        I didn’t understand your argument here. Going off what I believe you are trying to argue:

        A. Mankind was majority illiterate for its existence, you are applying your modern luxuries to people of the past.

        B. These revelations were meant to be temporary and for a specific time and people so them being corrupted was just a further test for them

        A major issue I believe you have is you think you have a complete understanding of all things and just because you can’t see why something is done it is therefore incorrect.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. stewjo004

        @Sven (pt 4)

        6. “But i question the prophethood of Mohammed, and all I get is a book to read. One i get told I can only truly understand if I speak a difficult to learn foreign language!”

        You are not being chastised for questioning anything (Also ot really hard to learn but I digress) the book itself is a miracle. Furthermore, no need to learn anything at the moment as we are currently speaking for it to be explained to you. The message is simple you have one God who created you and you have to listen to what He sent. Also, the judgment is harsher once someone sees those things (6:158, 5:115) It is mercy you don’t receive these things.

        7. “If the Shia/sunni rift and presence of other religions on earth 1400 years after the last prophet isn’t enough for a new one God should at least give a little magic show for the skeptics ;)”

        You don’t even know the Sunni/Shia split, to begin with, to even discuss it so this was kinda a weird point. Sunnis make up 80-90% of Islam so no we don’t have that many schisms for this to even be that much of an argument/issue. Also, God NEVER once said people won’t argue after revelation comes He said the opposite (98:4, 19:37, 43:65)

        8.”Seriously tho, if you’re handing out very harsh punishments for rule breaking / not following rituals a wise and just divine being should make sure everyone knows and understand the rules you have to live by.”

        Everyone…does?

        9. Sending down angels to talk with one guy in a cave, having others write stuff doing in rhyming Arabic.. it’s all a bit weird and human made sounding. Why then not publish magic books yourself as god? No doubt for anyone about their origin then.

        Once again how little your knowledge of Islam is. The cave incident happened ONE TIME. he(saw) didn’t just retreat to a cave every day and come back. Many times stuff came down as an incident unfolded that he(saw) had no control over. Furthermore, this miracle of “rhyming Arabic” is because when God sends a prophet to a nation He takes that nation’s specialty and does it better than them to strengthen that this person is from Him. For example with Moses(as) the magicians were doing sleight of hand “magic” making strings look like snakes. When Moses(as) threw his staff and it turned into a real snake they knew they couldn’t replicate that. in the same token, the Arabs pride themselves on the eloquence of their language which God then used. This is why they kept calling the Prophet(saw) a “magician” as they knew the rhetoric was not normal.

        10. “Ha, see you in heaven in (hopefully) a few decades then perhaps. Save a glass of red for me will you.”

        That’s up to you

        11. “Seriously though can you link to me about something concerning these people who turned away from mainstream religion, yet still get judged fairly for their actions by god? Sounds interesting, not something I heard about before in Abrahamic religions!”

        Those are Sabians, being lazy right now here’s wikipedia;
        “There has been much speculation as to the origins of the religious endonym from the varying reported practices attributed to them. The Arabic root ص ب ء (ṣ-b-ʾ), means “to grow forth” or “rise out of”. When said of a star, it means ‘to rise’, which may explain the association with star-worshippers. When relating to a religion, it connotes one who left his former religion, and was even a title of Muhammad for not being part of his tribe’s faith.[7] From such a root and in the context of the Quranic passages, it may refer to all people who leave their faiths, finding fault in them, but have yet to come to Islam”
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians#cite_note-8

        As for your argument regarding 2:62 for one that is a general statement. Proof of this can be seen in (22:17)

        “As for the believers and those who were Jewish, Spiritual, Christians, Sabians and Pagans, God will judge between them all on the Day of Standing; because God is a witness over everything.”

        Next, you hoped over all the other points regarding the man who committed blasphemy and God judging between the deaf, those who died between prophets etc. All these are clearly mentioned in our text. We have never doubted a person is judged by their circumstances in their life.

        Like

  16. Sven

    You raise no new or interesting points in this post I’m afraid, and seem confused about the reasoning behind my statements. So I too will repeat myself.

    Why is it ok in your religion for God to eternally torture people, for no other crime than not accepting Allah and the last day? That is the discussion you hopped in on. Parents aren’t morally allowed to lock you up and torture you for not worshipping them, which is what god does. Thus god is a cruel deity.

    I know you can’t prove anything about your religion, you believe in god, angels, jhinn because it says so in a book. What I am saying is that the God presented to us in Islam is very wicked and cruel, vast amounts of people get send to hell for not worshipping him. Your parent comparison does not refute any of my points, not loving your parents doesn’t allow them to torture you.

    Like

    1. mr.heathcliff

      “Why is it ok in your religion for God to eternally torture people, for no other crime than not accepting Allah and the last day?”

      i tried to give a moron like you an answer, but i hope this video will help you :

      Like

    1. Sven

      @Caliph ibn mumthaz

      Thank you for your relevant reply.

      “First of all, you are acting like that rejecting God and the last day won’t have any sort of evil consequences but there are such as a lack of objective morality and the can of worms that would bring about.”

      I’m more argueing that it’s POSSIBLE to reject God and the last day without it coming from an evil, arrogant or otherwise morally bankrupt place. This while – my reading of – the Qu’ran suggests that not accepting allah or the last day immediately disqualifies you from consideration of heaven – i.e. if you’ve been in (passing) contact with muslims, Islam, but didn’t convert it’s no heaven by definition. I have seen different viewpoints on this by other users in this comment section however and..

      ” And plus, even if they are altruistic, genuinely good people who reject God for the reasons you mentioned then we just say that God will examine their circumstances and will judge accordingly.”

      .. also by you. This conflicts with what I’ve heard from muslims before (not without quranic basis..) that you can’t possibly be even considered for heaven if you been in contact with muslims, been told about Islam but didn’t convert . I.e. that’s enough for the hellfire, the only thing for god to decide is how severe your punishment in hell is because you didn’t accept him. That’s the wicked, vain, narcisstic behaviour by God I keep referring to: worship ME first, then I’ll consider the rest.

      Your viewpoint however is that Hindu people still might get to heaven. Something I see people here sort of dance around, not wanting to literally say? Never heard it from a muslim in my life and you are the second person here indirectly stating it. This is why discussion with people is important, different people, different views on their religion.

      m r.heathcliff

      I see we’ve reached the “linking to bearded men on youtube” stage of discussion. I think other users have already better worded what you were trying to say so don’t sweat it, keep calm.

      Like

      1. Caliph ibn mumthaz

        @sven
        Bruh where did I even imply or indirectly state that Hindu people might still get into heaven. First of all, I’m not saying that the one who rejected God is coming from an evil morally bankrupt place but there is no guarantee that the people who rejected God are gonna be good people through out their entire life.
        You mentioned that what I said conflicts with what you heard Muslims said before, so? Why do some Muslims sayings you heard matter more than what the disciples who learnt directly from our founder and the learnt scholars of our tradition? Also btw we don’t just base our teachings on the Quran but also the sayings and teaching of our prophet peace and blessings upon him which either expand the teachings mentioned in the Quran or mentions concepts which aren’t in the Quran.
        Also firstly its not like they will immediately be sent to hell with no due process. They will be judged according to whatever special vague circumstances that you are trying to create. It’s simple as that.

        Like

  17. Caliph ibn mumthaz

    @sven
    So your objection is that it shouldn’t be OK for God to eternally torture people for just not accepting Allah and the last day. First of all, you are acting like that rejecting God and the last day won’t have any sort of evil consequences but there are such as a lack of objective morality and the can of worms that would bring about. Secondly, why are you just assuming that these people who reject God didn’t do any sort of crimes or are actually bad people? Sure, you can go on say that they are actually good people but this is just wishful thinking and assumptions. How many times we heard of people who are projected as nice but are actually bad people and are basically the worst. I’m not talking about famous people but even regular Joes who work in mundane jobs, etc. We don’t know what they think, their intentions, etc. And plus, even if they are altruistic, genuinely good people who reject God for the reasons you mentioned then we just say that God will examine their circumstances and will judge accordingly.

    Like

  18. Sven

    It becomes increasingly difficult to keep track of all the replies. Luckily I’m at home with covid with nothing to do.

    This is my latest reply to stewjo004, who I commend for remaining respectful after our initial sharply worded exchanges.

    1. “You can do whatever you want with your phone because you own it. If you don’t do what you’re created for what purpose do you serve?”

    Ok, thank you for describing your relationship to God. He created us (didn’t ask to be) and thus we are objects to do with as he pleases. That is unlike the parent compasion other users have tried to steer the discussion to, you can rebel against your parents without them disregarding you like an object, throwing you away in the hellfire. This indeed makes your god one to be feared, with a questionable title of “merciful” he gave himself through Mohammed. It’s not like a child/parent relationship, it’s a creator/object relationship. A slightly depressing view on life once again, but thank you for just giving your honest views.

    2. Seeing other people suffer and wallow in poverty makes her want to strive to make their lives better, hench running an orphanage where she takes on children from all backgrounds. I think this boils down to the old discussion that without religion, or in this case without supporting Islam, it’s not possible to be a morally good person, all good deeds must then be self serving. Good deeds are only good if they glorify god, because it is God who has decided on good and evil in your viewpoint. Hench once again talking past eachother I feel, but still my thoughts below:

    Our girls “crime” is only she didn’t accept Allah and the last day, which makes her inelgible for consideration of heaven. That is what makes god narcissistic, you have to do good deeds to please HIM, do rituals the way HE likes it, otherwise you are not considered for heaven irregardless of the way you treated your fellow man and animal. It’s therefore in my view both a narcissistic and vengeful god.

    If giving him credit is that important he should’ve done better spreading his message in a way that speaks to everyone on earth, not just (mostly) the people who got raised with his “true” religion.

    3. I would argue the following verses in conjection with eachother..

    He has set a limit to the Fire by saying: “Remaining in it for ages” (78:23) and
    saying: “Forever in it, except as God wishes.” (6:128) and saying: “As long as the
    Heavens and Earth endure, except as your Lord wishes.” (11:108) These three verses
    signify something temporary or conditional. While that one (the Garden) is eternal and
    unrestricted and is not temporary or conditional

    ..should lead to the conclusion that hell is by definition eternal, except in certain instances where god pardons certain people out of it (Forever in it, except as God wishes).Does it dispute the viewpoint that god sends vast amounts of humanity to hell, I don’t think so. I find this article more focussed on “it didn’t literally say this, so it might mean that..”, as opposed to rationally looking at what is actually written. However an intesting islamic perspective nontheless, thank you for sharing.

    4. “for example the context of 2:6-7 is for the pagans of Mecca who rejected all things, Islam, after THIRTEEN YEARS of preaching.”

    That is an interesting perspective as well. As I take it you are convinced God will look at the circumstances of say, a Hindu man, a Buddhist woman when they get to the final day, to see if they rejected Islam – or the version of Islam that has been presented to them – out of .. lets say “evil” , or “arrogant” reasons. If they however had good reasons to reject it, i.e. in your view this would be maybe them hearing about a wrong (perhaps wahabist, violent) interpretation of Islam – God might show them mercy and allow them to reach have heaven after perhaps a temporary stay in hell?

    I did not know this was a view muslims held, especially ones that are truly invested and read up on their religion such as the people found here. Muslims I talked to about heaven or hell where very convinced that only “people of the book” were by even being considered for heaven (granted they’ve been in contact with .. because god doesnt punish without sending down..) .

    Thank you for sharing. So in your view: even for the people not of the book (buddhist, hindu, confucianism etc) that have come into contact with some form of islam God will consider their circumstances on the last day, and might allow them access into the fabled garden. I think it’s a liberal interpretation and definitely not something all muslims will agree with, but I have been given another islamic perspective and it’s always good to remember not all people in a certain religion hold the same (exact) believes or thoughts.

    5. “These revelations were meant to be temporary and for a specific time and people so them being corrupted was just a further test for them”

    But since the hadith are supposed to be a guidance to modern muslims as well in the Sunni ideology how can they just be “temporary and for a specific time and people”? Or do you mean that you have to read them more as stories where you have to distill a certain everlasting principle (idk, “be good to your fellow man”) out of while disregarding the elements that are particular to certain culture and customs of the time? A fair view!

    My view is that an all knowing, powerful being would have had many much easier, better ways to spread his speficic rules, rituals and principles that have to be ahered to people on earth. Ofcourse there is much discussion on the “weakness” or valdity of hadith with this system of later writing stuff down based on eyewitness accounts. God should have foreseen that, thus making Hadith (which are written down based on eyewitness accounts) a big part of your religion will ofcourse lead to problems for believers. Which hadith to believe, what is the true message in it and what is simply part of the culture at the time? Questions modern muslims have a lot reading both the hadith and even the Quran. Therefore relliance on Hadith is a strange move for a supposedly infintely wise and powerful being.

    Not strange however if you view religion as manmade, we love telling and writing down stories in books. God could have instead erected massive pillars all throughout the earth detailing his rules in the language the people of the region spoke. But no, gotta go with angels who talk to a man, a man who then has to have his story written down by other men. And then years after his dead eyewitnesses who have their stories of interacting with that man written down. People in completely different cultures, speaking completely different languages have then have to make sense of those old written down texts.

    Its a bit farfetched, a strange way to do it for such a wise and powerful creature.

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      @ Sven (Note it might be easier to @ me like I do with your name so you can keep track easier)

      To begin I’m sorry to hear about your covid may God cure you and give you a long life.

      1. Merciful
      One can be Merciful and something to be feared. For example, when the prophet(saw) conquered Mecca, a people who had ridiculed, tortured, and fought him for almost 20 years were scared he would slaughter them all but instead said no harm would come to them this day. THAT is mercy when you have the ability to do something and then don’t. People are not thrown into Hell for any reason God gives them chances to come back which is why they have all their lives and not just a moment. For example, right now God gave you a chance with covid, He is giving you a chance by inspiring you to talk to us (as you apparently have been lurking for a while) you may take the opportunity or you may not. It might be something 20 years from now that makes you, but there is always things that He uses to call you back to Him before you actually are brought back. His mercy also extends to you being able to breathe, eat, etc even as you insult Him. The creator/object relationship is not depressing as that is what we were created to do, which is why it fills that gap people try to with the use of alcohol, drugs etc.

      2. Your example
      Okay, you said the key here:

      “…want to strive to make their lives better”

      This is her intent for what she does. Good, now did she have what she worked for is the question? Yes, she did. Again you cannot ask for a reward from someone for who you didn’t do it for and on the contrary, harmed them. If you feel this way then pay me for working at my job Sven (after I bust the window out your house as well) I didn’t do anything for you and on the contrary tried to harm you. The same dynamic is in play here. Yes, she didn’t wrong others but she wronged me and then expects a reward for it, that doesn’t make sense.

      3. “If giving him credit is that important he should’ve done better spreading his message in a way that speaks to everyone on earth, not just (mostly) the people who got raised with his “true” religion.”

      Okay, curiosity what would you have preferred other than completely turning a backward tribal society around in two decades, establishing a world empire from it, and allowing it to be one of three contenders (and the only religion) for the “end of history”?

      4. In Taymiyyah
      This is not an article, this ibn Taymiyyah’s book. he is a HEAVY HITTER scholar and knows how to interpret and synchronize. I was kinda worried that the translation might be weird but I will try and translate the verses as neutral as possible so you can understand better what he’s arguing:

      6:128. On the Day He gathers everyone together it will be said: “Demon group! You have seduced a great many of humans.” Their followers among the people will say: “Lord, we utilized each other, but now we have reached the deadline You’ve set for us…” and the reply will be: “Your home is the Fire, and you will remain there unless God wishes otherwise…” Your Lord is the One to pass Judgment and is All Knowing.

      11:106. As for those who were wretched, all they will hear is exhaling and inhaling,
      11:107. and they will stay as long as the heavens and the earth remain intact unless your Lord wishes otherwise. No doubt, your Lord does whatever He wants.
      11:108. As for those who’ve been brought joy, they will stay as long as the heavens and the earth remain intact, unless your Lord wishes otherwise. It will be a reward that will never be broken.

      These verses grammatically place conditions that would be unnessacary by adding “unless God wishes otherwise” also if you have early HEAVY HITTER Muslims like Umar, ibn Masood etc saying the same thing that carries big weight in the discussion. I never said the majority of humans wouldn’t go to Hell, but the answer is why? The majority of humans were heedless and didn’t even try to ask “why am I here” etc. They ate, drank,had sex and always looked for entertainment like animals.

      5. “f they however had good reasons to reject it, i.e. in your view this would be maybe them hearing about a wrong”

      It would all depend on the reason. We make general statements and not individuals. Now if this person rejects monotheism after being discussed ehhh…if this person has understood Islam, ehhh… but now let’s take your example that they didn’t understand etc. This is accounted for. For example in Surah Tauba when God is saying all treaties are off with the pagans that violated::

      If any of the pagans seek your protection, grant it to them so that they can hear God’s Word. Then take them to a place where they feel comfortable and safe because they’re people that didn’t know. (9:6)

      He differentiated between the different groups and didn’t command hostilities. This was their moment where they had to make a choice. This is not “liberal” (I don’t even know any Muslims who have ever argued this) just to show how “liberal” I am, NONE of this applies to you as you clearly understand the message and are rejecting it.

      5. These revelations were meant to be temporary and for a specific time and people so them being corrupted was just a further test for them”

      I was referring to earlier revelations, not our nation. However, there are things that are customs for the time. For example, riding on camels, wearing sandals, etc. Now to simplify things we would go into what is called “fiqh” but that’s a tangent I’d rather no open up for again brevity’s sake.

      6. Your strange arguments regarding ahadith
      “Ofcourse there is much discussion on the “weakness” or valdity of hadith with this system of later writing stuff down based on eyewitness accounts.”

      Uhhh…says who? First off hadith were not written down later I have no idea where you got that from. many of Muhammad’s(saw) disciples still lived at the time so I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

      “Which hadith to believe, what is the true message in it and what is simply part of the culture at the time? Questions modern muslims have a lot reading both the hadith and even the Quran. Therefore relliance on Hadith is a strange move for a supposedly infintely wise and powerful being.”

      That…is not what I meant at all. For simplicity’s sake, if you ever heard of Biblical textual criticism (made famous by Bart Ehrman) Muslims have been doing this since inception. We simply do not have problems with ahadith so I’m really having a hard time following you here. But again this goes back to my point of thinking you have all knowledge about all things.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Justegyptian1

        You said.. “Uhhh…says who? First off hadith were not written down later I have no idea where you got that from. many of Muhammad’s(saw) disciples still lived at the time so I don’t understand what you’re saying here.”

        You wrote many things and not connected points so I will just answer this.. ahadeeth were not written in the time of mohammed because he simply refused anything to be written after him but quran (that’s a hadeeth in Muslim)
        Bukhary wrote what he wrote 200 years after the death of mohammed
        So, even we don’t have the original text bukhary wrote, bukhary himself and bukhary’s great grandfather never saw mohammed

        You also talked about god being merciful and still punishing, you can’t make it logical but by giving an example of a teacher/dad, but the problem is that god is not supposed to be a human
        my dad didn’t create me, so it’s okay for him to be merciful sometimes and punishing sometimes, he punishes me to make me better, but god has got two problems here, he can just make better without punishing + what’s the point in eternal punishment?
        If you say it’s logical then u need to give me a similar example with a similar motive.. even if a human torture a human to death, that’s because humans have got emotions which god should not have.. if u can’t give me an example then u have to admit it’s not logical because logic is human reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

        Like

      2. stewjo004

        @Justegyptian1

        Well for one i don’t recall talking to you but thank you for your (unwanted) comment. Down the line:

        1.”You wrote many things and not connected points so I will just answer this.. ahadeeth were not written in the time of mohammed”

        Well, thank you for showing your lack of reading comprehension as I never stated this I was referring to the Sahaba. And yes some were just like how the Quran was (but again you don’t even know the history of hadith compilation given your completely retarded statement about Bukhari but more on that in a sec)

        Hadith compilation came in stages like the Quran:

        Time of the prophet(saw) (the hadith you are referring to was a particular time period so that they didn’t make their way as scribal footnotes into the Quranic manuscripts (like what one finds in for eample the Bible) he(saw) later lifted this ban after the conquest of Makkah (Abi Dawud)

        Bukhari did NOT compile hadith he was more a codifier and you stating this alone is enough to show it would have better to have remained quiet. Bukhari simply took earlier works such and codified the material. Ahadith books are WAY earlier than Bukhari for example we have the Sahifah of Hammam (Abu Hureira’s(ra) direct student)

        https://openlibrary.org/books/OL4289466M/Sahifah_Hammam_ibn_Munabbih

        This work is one of the one’s Bukhari used and what do you know same ahadith. But it’s okay we all embarras ourselves when we talk about subjects we know nothing about just be a better person than you are 😊

        2 “you can’t make it logical but by giving an example of a teacher/dad”

        I…never did? Got me confused with someone else but I believe that’s the by product of budding in and not knowing what you’re talking about.

        3. “my dad didn’t create me, so it’s okay for him to be merciful sometimes and punishing sometimes, he punishes me to make me better”

        But…you’re dad…did? I assume you’re not married but when 2 people love each other very much and they want to make a baby….

        4. “If you say it’s logical then u need to give me a similar example with a similar motive.. even if a human torture a human to death, that’s because humans have got emotions which god should not have.. if u can’t give me an example then u have to admit it’s not logical because logic is human reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.”

        As a note for when you’re attemting to debate simply sprinkling unnecessary words over things doesn’t make your point more valid

        Before I begin my response, define the word “mercy” for me, you little Voltaire you.

        Like

    2. mr.heathcliff

      “This indeed makes your god one to be feared,”

      so are you saying there can’t be a healthy or just fear?

      you are a joke. i told you before that god is not identical to his punishing powers.

      Like

  19. Sven

    @stewjo004

    6. The book itself is not a miracle, islamic miracles (embrology, splitting of the moon (no evidence for whatsoever) the “expansion of the universe” etc) perhaps strengthen the faith (confirmation bias) of an already religious person, but are in itself not remotely convincing to “open the eyes” if you will of a disbeliever. It is a book which states a lot of miracles happened, sure.

    “In light of this, this essay aims to provide a rational and Islamic perspective on how to understand the scientific verses in the Qur’ān. It is time more people from the Muslim community spoke out against this problematic approach to verifying the Divine nature of the Qur’ān. It has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists and it has exposed the lack of coherence in the way they have formulated the argument. Significantly, many Muslims who converted to Islam due to the scientific miracles narrative, have left the religion due to encountering opposing arguments. ”
    – Hamza Tzortzis

    The basis of my statements does not get discussed, my first post summarizing the core of Abrahamist religions is correct. At this point I’m just getting your viewpoints on Islam, which I find interesting.

    7. Both sects call eachother muslim while one thinks Muhammed appointed succesors while the other sunni sect rejects this. Sunni also have a different Hadith canon they hold in high regard compares to Shia. It’s a rift for sure.

    This discussion is pointless because in my view god will never send down another prophet because he doesn’t exist, while in your view god not sending down another prophet must mean that everything with islam is overall fine and dandy.

    8. How arrogant, ofcourse they don’t. Plenty of people find the stories and teaching of Islam exactly that: human stories. Their divine nature is not evident for them, thus they don’t follow the specific rules and rituals regarding what hand to use to do certain things, what animal to eat, puth a cloth on your hair etc.

    9. I don’t really think discussing “staffs turning into snakes” is for me. Thanks for explaining your believes. Since many people nowadays pride themselves on rationality and wanting proof for things today – something Islam cannot provide, altho ofcourse the islamic miracle narrative is a weak attempt at doing so – perhaps it’s time for a different prophet.

    10. I’ll read up on the Sabians ;)!

    As far only replying to certain parts of your posts, as do you. The core of my posts, from the first one out, is to make you question the divine source of the Islam. Something you ultimately can’t proof, you believe. You do not know, because there is no proof for anything in the Quran. Be it god, angels, jhinn, turning staffs into snakes, people into lizards, flooding the entire world (or a part of it), splitting the moon..

    That’s why I resigned myself to learning about islamic viewpoints by the users of this site, of which I thank you for taking the time to explain your viewpoints in a mostly polite manner.

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      @Sven

      6. The Quran is a miracle

      For one you can stop being so pretentious, I am a convert to Islam. Next, that is not what I stated I said God took what that nation prides itself in and did it better. Let’s look at what the people of the time were saying (because its still a document from the time):

      10:1. A.L.R. These are the miraculous verses of the Book full of wisdom and judgement.
      10:2. Is it really so strange to people that I’ve revealed to a man from among them that he should warn humanity, and give good news to those who believe, that they’ll be on the first steps of truth from their Lord? Yet still the disbelievers say: “This man is a sorcerer!”

      38:4. They find it strange that a warner would come from their own people so they say: “He’s just a lying sorcerer.”

      Now, why were the Arabs calling Muhammad(saw) a sorcerer Sven? If it’s just some simple rhyming why did they think he(saw) did magic?

      7. Both sects call eachother muslim while one thinks Muhammed appointed succesors while the other sunni sect rejects this. Sunni also have a different Hadith canon they hold in high regard compares to Shia. It’s a rift for sure.

      This is incorrect on basically everything except they have a different hadith canon (and I use the term “hadith” loosely as theirs are:
      A. Later
      B. Only have a few sayings from Muhammad(saw) as the majority is attributed to Imam Jafar(rh))

      I also didn’t understand you last sentence about prophet but moving on.

      8. “Their divine nature is not evident for them, thus they don’t follow the specific rules and rituals regarding what hand to use to do certain things, what animal to eat, puth a cloth on your hair etc.”

      Yes, them not using their brains is not God’s fault. I would also like to say again before creation everyone already agreed to these conditions when God created them (7:172) God just sent the Reminder (another name for the Quran) You forgetting your agreement is not His fault

      9. I don’t really think discussing “staffs turning into snakes” is for me.

      ️🤦‍♂️ The irony in thinking you are “rationale” and not even understanding the point of my post is so…ironic.

      10. Sabians
      Cool

      11. Question Islam, blah, blah blah

      Lol dude I am convinced. This is only for your benefit, not mine. So question, as i notice your lot like to play this game a lot. What is something that “proves” it as true in your view?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sven

        The Quran claiming other people thought Muhammed was a sorcerer does not prove anything if you don’t believe in the divine source of the Islam.

        Als I just read you (and I suspect other users I’ve been talking to here as well) are converts. I suspect biblical errors have pushed you to accept Islam. If seeing the biblical errors hasn’t lead you to questios the divine sources of other religions, but instead pushed you firmly towards another one there is no insight for you to be gained by my questions. See the Mark Twain quote I opened with, unfortunately for you this has just made you more sure of Islam.

        7. The succesor in Shia ideology was a reference to Ali, who’s ofcourse in the Shia ideology held in much higher regard than Sunni. I summarized.

        8. Wrong, it is fact using the brain that leads to rejecting religion for a lot of people. There are a lot of atheist / agnostic scientists for this very reason. People who advance humanity, make the lives of people better and decrease suffering on earth.Iinstead of looking at their life as a temporary game to please their divine master. Look at all the time you spend on this site, who knows what you would have invented or progressed if you weren’t brainwashed by religion.

        9. With all the different religions in the world that are at eachothers throat, it’s logical to think it would be time for another prophet. In the muslim mind mohammed however is the last prophet, and since God hasn’t send down another down for 1400 years muslims are convinced they are doing – on the whole – good. While the lack of prophets despite the religious chaos in the world would lead a thinking man to question if god ever send down prophets in the first place.

        Look I’ve got some insight on who muslims think goes to hell and who doesn’t, how you think God judges people. That was interesting, and ultimately all you can provide for me.

        So thanks for that.

        I know converts are among the most fanitcal, and to be quite honest if I knew this was a convert site I wouldn’t even have replied much, the rationality, wanting proof for things ship has long sailed for you guys.

        I hope Islam fills the hole in your life that caused you to convert and gives you some joy on this earth to. Enjoy your wine, companions and green cushions in the afterlife.

        Like

    2. mr.heathcliff

      scheven on day of judgement

      “hey God, who are you, i didn’t worship you, i thought you were a fairy tail…i should be put in heaven…if you punish me you are horrible”

      scheven believed in falsehood all her life, what is wrong with fearng falling into the condition scheven is ?

      isn’t that a good type of fear?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sven

        Good thing the day of judgement is as real as your soul being weighted by Ra after you die. Oh no those are just fables men believed in at the time, yours are the truth. It even says in your book those old believes were false and this is the real story!!

        Nah again, got some insight on your views on heaven and hell, that’s all there’s to be gained here.

        Like

  20. Sven

    @stewjo004

    My nose is stuffed an thus based on the hadith the devil resides in my nose at the moment, and I should clean it five times to expel the devil there in. It is nice you see this as god pushing me towards religion, but all different world religions (also ancient ones) have always interested me. The more holy books and stories I read the more I am in disbelieve people in the 21st century believe in all these magic stories. The hadith section on this site is.. something else.

    The fundamental issue – i do not believe the Quran has a divine basis – can not be adressed by you. Posts ago I already knew all I’m going to get here is islamic perspectives by the users here (at first I thought this was a site with both christians and muslims lol) on their understanding of God’s punishment and mercy / hellfire. This I find interesting since they are different from what I’ve heard from other muslims. Your words have as much as a chance to convert me as mine have making you question wether the Quran really has a divine basis, all you can is learn different viewpoints.

    2.

    I understand in your view a human is created to serve and please God, if a human doesn’t do that everything he does is self serving because he doesn’t do what he was made to do and can thus be punished by brutal fire torture. Not worshipping someone is not the same as throwing rocks through their window by the way, god chooses to be spread religion in a really conveluted way throughout earth with his “prophet, book, written down stories by eyewitnesses” method and still takes massive offense if people don’t “find” and thus worship him through these strange methods.

    Good actions are only good if they are to glorify God, after all it’s God who invented good and evil. Actions like taking care of the sick and needy, streetchildren etc might seem good to us, but if the person in question does it because he likes helping people that is not enough to please God. Got it, thanks for your viewpoint. Similiar of what I’ve heard from my christian roommate funnily enough.

    3. Send massive radiating pillars with his rules scribbled on them all throughout the wolrd. Understandable for the people of the region it’s placed in. Made of materials unknown to man so it is clear for everyone it can’t be manmade. Maybe do that PLUS a prophet for the cultures that can’t read or write. That way the people who aren’t blessed enough to see the magic performing prophet in action themselves still have the divine pillar with it’s obvious divine source. So they know they aren’t just following a bunch of manmade fairytales.

    If God insists of working through prophets for.. whatever reason (definitely not delusional humans thinking they talk to god which you still see today no no, this was different) , then by now God should have also noticed that you have shia, sunni, christians, jews and atheists who kinda disagree on a lot of things, and perhaps send down another Prophet to clear things up. Again, we can’t intellectually discuss this because in the islamic mind muhammed = last prophet, no new prophet = God’s please, we doing good.

    4. “I never said the majority of humans wouldn’t go to Hell, but the answer is why? The majority of humans were heedless and didn’t even try to ask “why am I here” etc”

    Ok thanks for your explaination. I don’t like anything or anyone who tortures massive amounts of animals that he owns, let alone a being who tortures billions of humans. Seems psychopathic. Being “heedless” does not make it a rational thing to send someone down to hell for eternity. You worship a God that insists on getting credit and sends people to hell if he doesn’t get it. Ok, fear Allah.

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      To begin, the hadith doesn’t say stuffy nose= shaytan. Now you see how you see how you keep trying to tell (bad) jokes? Now when I start making them I’m gonna hear about how I’m so mean so how about we stop that as QB said you like to give it out but can’t take it.

      1.Viewpoints
      I believe you have no real thing to offer and majority of the time you speak for the sake of it. I used to be an agnostic and was a superior debater than you.

      2.”Convoluted”
      Not really you have no understanding of what God is to begin with. Simple question: what is a “Messenger”? Not everyone gets to speak with the King they send people to deliver points same thing in play

      3. Your “way” God should have done it.

      Yeah that’s a really great plan except…people still denied that when it came similar to this… so now what? Also you never got around the fact that you have literally stood before God already saying you would worship Him. The prophets, books etc were simply a reminder of said agreement you already made so in reality you’ve actually gotten MORE than what you asked for.

      4. Sorcery
      I never said it was definitive proof of divine source (because you would deny no matter what) I asked “why were they claiming he was” stick with me Sven.

      5 Biblical errors blah, blah, blah
      Uhh…no? Could care less what the Bible says, knew it was wrong since about…12 I think? And pretty sure I’m the only convert on this site but God knows best. Also lol you are the ONLY one receiving any benefit from our dialog as you gained new info but as typical fashion this must be “wrong” or “liberal” instead of maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

      6.Shia
      And that’s STILL wrong, moving on.

      7.Progress
      For one barely on the site lol. Next what do I do for living Sven since you know so much about what I do to “progress humanity” and while you’re at it why don’t you tell me what you do and we’ll compare and contrast each other’s contributions(bonus for you QB the owner of this site IS an actual biologist lol)

      8. “Religious chaos”
      Wow drama queen there really isn’t. Muslims and Christians alone make up 55% (i.e. half of all humans) As for sects Muslims from 80-90% agree so what the heck are you talking about? We Muslims are not divided about revelation our problem historically has been not in fighting with how much power we quickly gain by following it. Again this is why there is a high chance for us to be a winner in the “end of history” so what do we need another prophet for when we’re steadily moving along towards victory?

      9. Your example etc
      You have yet to explain why someone should be rewarded for what they did for another Sven. Sven pay me 2000 for working at my job this week. If you don’t you’re a selfish, narcissist according to your line of reason.

      10. Proof
      Now that the initial point is made so if this is proof for you then when you see smoke you don’t think fire until you see it, am I right?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. stewjo004

        @Sven
        Also just to show your dishonesty (and kufr)

        Originally you argued that people were born Muslim Yada, Yada, Yada now that you spoke to a convert (pretty sure again the only one here) now its converts are fanatical blah, blah, blah. Why not just say I’m a kaffir who is just talking to talk? Isn’t that much easier?

        Liked by 2 people

      2. Sven

        @stewjo

        No you are being dishonest What did I actually say?

        1. “She sticks with the religion of her parents, something I suppose most people on earth do”

        2. “It shows your deep closedmindedness if you think “arrogance” is the reason smart / kind people come to reject islam. Sounds weird if you didn’t grow up to it for most”

        3. If giving him credit is that important he should’ve done better spreading his message in a way that speaks to everyone on earth, not just (mostly) the people who got raised with his “true” religion.

        keyword: most. Most people stick with the religion they got raised with. Talking to a convert on a blog like this doesn’t change that, where else are you gonna find converts if not on some “debunking” “owning christians and atheists” type of blog.

        Like

  21. mr.heathcliff

    scheven to God:

    i dont want to be created…i wanna be my own creator and make my own rules and my own god…i dont like being told who and what to , i am selfish i do things to make myself happy, i wanna have schen rules….i am making my schen revealation , i don’t like to be scared but i like being on planet which according to book of atheists is gonna kill me….i wanna love my parents because it makes m e feel scehven happy…i am now going to impose schevn values on moslims…

    Liked by 1 person

    1. mr.heathcliff

      scheve to God:
      my mother and father made me….they are vessels and their feelings are just egg and spunk joined together…its all schevn pointless….why i have feelings for egg and spunk? scheveny schevnyyyyyy

      Like

  22. Sven

    1. In am interested in the viewpoints of religious people such as yourself regarding the justifications for worshipping a god that sends so many people to eternal (or as I’ve learned from you just very long) torture prison, and how it all makes sense and adds up in the mind of devout muslim.. I know now muslims can:

    – mentally sidestep this easily: god only sends those to hell who deserve it, any discussing of hypothetical situations is moot. If you go to hell you deserved it, doesn’t matter if you appeared good in the eyes of your fellow godless atheists. Discussing this with them leads to anger and talking in circles.

    – If they admit, like you, a staggering amount of humanity gets send to torture to hell this doesn’t stop them from thinking in terms of god is someone you have to love, respect, work towards pleasing and praising. He made you, if you didn’t work for him by acknowledging him (employee analogy from you) or love him like a parent (analogy other user used) you have offended him in such a way that eternal hell torture is justified. Can’t expect anything from a man you didn’t acknowledge like you can’t expect payment from a man you haven’t worked for.

    Another insight in the religious mind for me. For me personally it is evident that my parents are my parents or my boss is my boss, but believing in god based on the quran and hadith isn’t exactly something that is or was self evident for me , just like it wasn’t and isn’t forvast amount of humans – who have been in contact with islam one way another – for the last 1400 years. Yet boy oh boy does god take it personally.

    2 If we look at the prophet frequency between jewish > christianity > islam I’d say we’re about due a new one. God’s slacking.

    3 He should give it another shot because there are more atheists than ever and we ain’t buying the book/prophet model. I suppose birth rates do be keeping up down versus the islamic ones, and the https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/ types don’t quite compensate it . But damn god is really disregarding a lot of non believers in the mean time. A lot of people to hell!

    “Also you never got around the fact that you have literally stood before God already saying you would worship Him”

    That’s not a fact, that’s something you believe because you read it in a book. If that’s the way god wanted it to be he could have that memory remain with everyone. The first memory of every human, meeting God. Hey, that’s an even better and easier way to make sure everyone knows you exist, let the memory be like a videogame tutorial explaining all the rules and rituals. But nah, angels, man who can’t write, other people writing it down, eyewitnesses accounts written decades later it is.

    4 Ofcourse you didn’t, you – or any other religious person – don’t have any definitive proof of a divine source for your religious believes at it’s core. Called believing, not knowing, for a reason.

    5. You think there is a “real” “true” Islam because there is a divine source that send in down with certain absolute wisdom to be found. There is not, so all religion is is a bunch of different human interpreations of some texts they think are holy. Some of those people get elevated status because they read a lot of different books and presented theories to tie it all together. That relates to my point 7 by the way, I always wonder what those type of people would have come up with without Islam — Muslims pick and choose what to follow like all religious people.

    ISIS could jusitify most they did with the Quran and Hadith in hand, but got called non islamic by others who call themselves muslim. Diffferent viewpoints on what Islam means, is fundamentally about. Therefore for me it’ll always be you giving your viewpoints on your religion. Not you explaining to me how it “really” is.

    6 l the shia sunni schism is ofcourse an interesting topic but sure

    7 I am glad you and others find time for that in your life. However a lot of time by bright people gets spend studying ancient texts, going to religious school or adhering to certain rituals that I really believe leave less room for both creative and scientific endevours. I mean the Islamic world after it’s golden age isn’t exactly known for it’s endless inventions and artwork. I don’t think it’s a coicidene either scientific discovery wasn’t exactly booming during the deeply christian middle ages in europe. You can go to heaven without being groundbreaking.

    However as an olive branch: great scientific discoveries where and are still made by religious people, and the fact that religious people can seperate critical thinking regarding their religious believes from their other research is something I always have to keep being reminded of. Just like there are smarter atheists than you, there are smarter religious people than me. You live and learn. If the author of this site publishes Biology articles (non islam apologist, just regular research) I tip my atheist fedora to him.

    Oh and ofcourse the personal stuff, currently doing my master studying philosophy of law. I might do my thesis on the Reliance of the Traveller. Not just the divine covid that led me to this blog. That puts my contributions to humanity indeed firmly below that of a published scientific author.. who maybe could publish a bit more if he didnt run this blog on the side 😉 . Thinking about religious stuff takes up a lot of mental space. I’m sure you could see how someone not believing in God would find that slightly probelmatic, lots of people spending a lot of time with pointless rituals. Your viewpoint, noted. Don’t be arrogant towards the religious thinking all they do is study religion, humans are more complex than that.

    8 Yes I think in the last 1400 years there has been a lot of bloodshed and division in the name of religion. With different sides passionately telling and procaliming that indeed they support the one true religion, and killing or oppressing others who hold different viewpoints. But I understand you have to believe all is going according to plan, and has been for last 1400 years. Little mongol invasion here and there, some crusades, got a lot of land at first (which is ofcourse exactly what gave islam its elan: it was time for a one god religion in the middle east and the fact it was backed up by a conquering army gave it a divine appeal to the people. All those victories, must be blessed. I don’t want to offend so I won’t reference following other wars where angels and divine help for the muslims seemed absent) than fizzled out a bit. Maybe the divine army buff expired after 100 years idk.

    So back to the point of the cruel torturing god we find in the Abrahamistic religions: lots, billions, of people were and are not believing in any Abrahamic religions for the last 1400 years. This while Islam was/is around in one way or another for them, and the Quran teaches us they shouldve therefore accepted it. We talking the majority of people living between 1400 years ago and now, billions, getting tortured by God in the afterlife as we speak, in your believes ofcourse. You said this literally earlier, tons of people in hell.

    In my view you can’t have an all wise just supreme being pulling these type of cruel, brutal schemes, that’s not the same being who supposedly created billions of universes, every atom in the universe. In general there’s also a huge disconnect between being able to create galaxies but still worrying about ham sandwhiches but I once again digress.

    But again, thanks for your viewpoint, I see why muslims are always hammering and pleased with the amount of people regarding themselves muslim growing.

    9 Yes in your view we are the object of God, or his employee, so I understand that in your understanding it’s then okay to then burn you for eternity for a very long time. This because your good deeds (good as atheists regard someone who is kind, friendly, unassuming, doesn’t hurt animals or people unless attacked first and tries to help out where possible) aren’t good in the eyes of god if you didn’t give him his due for actually creating you in the first place. I got it.

    My point of view is that a being that presents itself as merciful indeed can’t possibly be doing those things. A contradiction in your book. Meriful and sending so many people to hell for eternal torture is not something that makes sense. I’ve read why you think it does and why other users think it does, and it still doesn’t sense to me.

    10 No smoke to be seen, only your justifications on why you worship a god who tortures on a massive scale.

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      @Sven

      That’s good as I like hearing from people who believe they’re intelligent when they’re not.

      1.Your poor example
      Lol no one is angry you just ignore the point. Again please demonstrate why you shouldn’t pay me when I go to my job. STILL waiting for you to answer this point.

      2.Vast majority blah, blah

      Except we were a large percentage for a long time and you STILL have yet to answer the end of history point .

      3.New prophet
      Except theology wise we don’t believe in any more to come dumb@$$ so thank you for proving your ignorance despite “studying” theology

      4.More atheist
      Uhhh lol you’re a recent trend in human history born from Europe’s “enlightment” age where they basically took our stuff and just secularized everything. Afain you are NOT even a contender for end of history (which you clearly don’t even know what I’m talking about)

      5.Memory
      So according to you you don’t owe debts when you forget things…interesting. Also thank you for demonstrating you’re so slow even after someone tells you info you still parrot things . I’ll let you guess what.

      6.Muslims pick and choose
      Oh well blow me down as long as you declare it I guess it must be true!

      7.ISIS
      Hmm interesting that we ignored all the politics regarding the secular sons of Iraq that was the US’s death squads or Camp Bucca or that no scholarship agreed but hey what does 12 years of study mean am I right person who doesn’t even know fundamental points of outlook theology?

      8.Shia
      You’re to slow to follow even basics

      9.Contribitions
      Mmmm…seems to me you’re a wittle embarrassed that you realized even at a basic human level QB and I are both more intelligent and contribute more to humanity’s progress than you. It’s cool we all make @$$e$ of ourselves sometimes just know your role.
      PS no such thing as a smarter kaffir than me. At a basic level you’re all retards trying to make finite things infinite.

      10.Philosophy
      Oh you’re a student if the study of retards (to quote Imam Malik) that makes sense now.

      11. Bloodshed
      Uhhh the rise if atheism (which gave birth to communism) is more responsible for I believe (have to double check) 4 times as much bloodshed as all the crusades combined lol.

      Also we we’re still kick@$$ WAY after 100 years so now we can determine your history is as poor as your philosophy as this is the I think 4th or 5th major historical blunder you’ve made.

      12.In my view…
      Who asked for it first off? Next, that is because you are deep down believe in anthropomorphism one of God’s names 8s Al Lateef (the Subtle One) He plans ALL things at all times not just the things you deem important.

      13.Mercy
      I’ll be honest dude I don’t think you even know what mercy is.

      14.Smoke
      It’s a metap- 🤦‍♂️God you’re dumb 🙄

      Like

  23. Sven

    @stewjo004

    Look how mad you are, more and more mad with every post and less and less arguments. I’ve studied you, the muslim here, and got your points of views. Bosses that require payment, bosses you dont work for cant reward you. How spiritual your analogies are.

    “No such thing as a smarter kaffir than me. ”

    Your smarter than Stephen Hawking? Astounding arrogance. For me, I’m in University so far, got my Bachelors, might be smarter than the both of you. But regardless I respect contributions to humankind on earth such as publicing cutting edge biology research. That’s knowledge that pushes us forward. I ofcourse think the part of you that justifies your believes in adult fairytales is naive, but I respect the serperation between the infantile thoughts on religion and what someone produces outside of that.

    Declaring yourself smarter than all who reject your religious believes, kaffir, has showed your hand. And that’s all I want the muslims here to do. You worship a torturing god who sends vast amount of humanity to hell and still love him, your parent, your boss. You see yourself lounging in heaven with so many in hell. All Hindu’s do go to hell. That’s your religion, say it produly That’s why my summary got you guys up on arms from the get go.

    Tits and wine for good boys, fire and brimstone for the bad ones. Abrahamic religions are the biggest con in history.

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      @ Sven

      1. Mad
      Lol, I PROMISE I’m not even slightly upset. You could literally die right now and I wouldn’t bat an eye. By the way what the heck is a “spiritual analogy I used a simple point for a retarded “Master philosopher” like you to understand (and waiting for you to refute btw)

      2. “Your smarter than Stephen Hawking?”

      Yes, moving on.

      3. “but I respect the serperation between the infantile thoughts on religion and what someone produces outside of that.”

      But the two aren’t separable in my case soooooo…

      4. “Declaring yourself smarter than all who reject your religious believes, kaffir, has showed your hand”

      Wasn’t…hiding anything? If you’re any type of regular around here I ALWAYS say kuffar all retards designed to annoy me, nothing new. I’m not even upset about the majority of mankind going to Hell because they’re ungrateful morons (like my present company)

      5. “Tits and wine for good boys, fire and brimstone for the bad ones. ”

      Except there is WAY more than that but again one has to not be a retard to know that. Any more points for me as I wait for you to explain you cashapping me for going to my job today?

      Like

  24. Caliph ibn mumthaz

    @stew
    I think the problems with sven is that he delved into topics that he clearly didn’t know. Furthermore, making some very retarded comments for a guy apparently been lurking around the blog for a while which makes me wonder if he even did research on Islam in the first place. It’s like he just read some wiki Islam articles and called it a day. I wish tho you could also include the following arguments:
    A. Demonstrate on why being merciful and being severe in punishment is contradictory. Contradiction would mean making two comments that make each other impossible. But being merciful doesn’t make one to be punishing impossible. A contradiction would be like you are a pacifist but you are violent.
    B. Why is the fact that a majority going to hell bothering you. I mean we can agree that humanity are majority of the times are the worst sothe fact a majority is in hell bothersome
    Altho you might have made these arguments earlier as I kinda skimmed through the replies but overall what do you think of these arguments I’ve made?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. stewjo004

      @ Ibn Mumthaz

      Definitely agree he and the other guy delved into topics they don’t know. The problem is he is too arrogant to say he doesn’t know and instead carries on pretentiously.

      A. Yes that is a simple point. Hence why I asked them to define “mercy” (which neither did) Also, to add they are acting as if He only declared Himself merciful. Either way, as you said neither thing makes the other impossible thus not a contradiction.

      B. The problem is he can’t get around most of them did nothing but expect a reward for it which I find strange.

      Like

    2. Sven

      @Caliph ibn mumthaz @stewjo004

      1. “Severe punishment” = eternal torture .Not a smack around the ear, temporary time out, jail, eternal TORTURE. Now this eternal torture is not for the worst of the worst of humanity, i.e. the mudering rapists, child abusers or whatever. No, this eternal torture is the punishment for disbelieving, a crime invented by God. You can’t call yourself this supreme architecht divine just merciful being and TORTURE the majority of humanity in hell for your self made up “crimes”. No one on earth is hurt by others disbelieving, yet the punishment is eternal torture! This while a lot of people can’t “get” to God through the Quran or hadith, it doesn’t make sense to them. In the meanwhile them not believing doesn’t hurt anyone on earth, but in God’s mind justifies eternal punishment.

      If merciful gets defined as “bringing someone relief from something unpleasant” . That certainly doesn’t compute with eternal burning in hell for a made up crime by god, that again.. doesn’t hurt anyone else but (apparently) him. We talking torture for massive, massive amounts of people and you’re argueing something doing that still can be called merciful? Differing viewpoints that won’t be resolved, there’s nothing to discuss anymore.

      2. Because I don’t think the average human around me deserves eternal torture in hell, and I don’t think a being that’s supposed to be far wiser and just than me would do so. Yet in Arbahamic religions, he does. They might be stupid, brash, but eternal torture? That’s insanely cruel, they don’t deserve that at all in my view. I think better of humanity than you I suppose.

      I’ve given these viewpoints over and over. I got yours. At this point, you’ll post to try to “debunk” all this again, say I misunderstand Islam, ofcourse you can be merciful and torture the majority of humanity (says so in the Quran after all), lying kaffir who cares what you think is just it’s god who decides. Fine, you should post that because it’ll make you feel better, last word in wins, always.

      For me however, the religious debate itch has been well and truly scratched. Going around in circles with religious fanatics on the internet (even ones smarter than Stephen Hawking :’) ) does get to a point where I just don’t care at all anymore what you have to say, about anything really. That point has been reached, what am I doing here. Good luck and good night.

      Like

      1. mr.heathcliff

        “Now this eternal torture is not for the worst of the worst of humanity, i.e. the mudering rapists, child abusers or whatever. No, this eternal torture is the punishment for disbelieving, a crime invented by God”

        on the day of judgement the abused child will have the same feeling for his abuser after the child knows that his abuser reformed and repented?

        when the murdered is brought back to life and finds out that the murderer reformed and repented….

        on the other hand, why should the non-repenting , arrogant , deluded ,who thinks he made himself, denied the existence of one who WILLS his(the arrogant persons) breathing, ask for release from divine punishment ?

        Like

      2. mr.heathcliff

        “That certainly doesn’t compute with eternal burning in hell for a made up crime by god, that again.. doesn’t hurt anyone else but (apparently) him.”

        he could have put you in hell fire and you would have no complaints, it doesnt hurt god, god will show you how your own disbelief was in reality hurting you. you will be asked to seek assistance of your arrogance on d.o.j, it wont come to your help. its a system designed not to give god pain ( how can DESIGNER of every subatomic particle, feel pain)

        Like

      3. stewjo004

        @ Sven

        1. “Severe punishment” = eternal torture
        All “crimes” are made up, Nietzsche.

        2. “No one is hurt”
        Actually yes because then you retards makeup things like communism etc. that causes deaths for millions of people instead of following the guidance given to you. Furthermore, you wronged the One who created you which in our scenario existed for some odd reason, feel as if no rights exist.

        3. “Mercy”
        Here’s the actual definition of “mercy”, Nietzsche: “compassion or forbearance (see FORBEARANCE sense 1) shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one’s power” (And just so we have “forbearance” defined: ” a refraining from the enforcement of something (such as a debt, right, or obligation) that is due”. So yes all this is not contradictory, please see my point earlier about you being dumb.

        4. “In my view…”

        Here allow me to emphasize as this keeps alluding to you, (*ahem) NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR VIEWS, all you do is make things up and run with it. You are not the president of the universe and has been established multiple times in this conversation you believe you’re intelligent when you’re not and don’t even understand the basics of life. You have produced no good for humanity and just exist as a speck within its existence pretending your opinion matters.

        5. “Kaffir”
        Not even using it in a proper sentence 🙄 But yes I do disbelieve in your unsubstantiated opinions. Hence to you be your payback and to me my payback.

        6. “Religious fanatics”

        No jack@$$ you got stumped several times and refuse to answer the question or were unaware of the topic. But hey if it helps you sleep at night be my guest.

        #kuffarareretards

        Like

  25. Caliph ibn mumthaz

    @sven
    “self made up “crimes”.”
    Can you tell us what a crime even is?
    A crime is “an action or omission which constitutes an offence and is punishable by law.”
    Notice here it doesn’t specify which action or omission or the nature there of so yeah disbelieving would be considered a crime technically in God’s eyes when we are going by that definition. Also what makes you think that you get to decide what a crime is when you’re own ideology justifies actions which are seen as crimes in SECULAR countries like necrophilia, etc.
    “Now this eternal torture is not for the worst of the worst of humanity, i.e. the mudering rapists, child abusers or whatever. No, this eternal torture is the punishment for disbelieving, a crime invented by God.”
    Ummm who told you that? Like there are alot of crimes in our religion other than disbelieving that would doom one to eternal torture like murder, etc so idk where you got that idea from.
    ” This while a lot of people can’t “get” to God through the Quran or hadith, it doesn’t make sense to them.”
    If it doesn’t due to a legitimate excuse like ignorance then they would be judged accordingly and Allah knows best. Maybe you should stop with these vague hypotheticals as the principle of God judging them according to their circumstances still applies and the principle God is all just still applies. There is literally nothing you can say that would put that into question.
    “I’ve given these viewpoints over and over. I got yours. At this point, you’ll post to try to “debunk” all this again, say I misunderstand Islam, ofcourse you can be merciful and torture the majority of humanity (says so in the Quran after all), lying kaffir who cares what you think is just it’s god who decides. Fine, you should post that because it’ll make you feel better, last word in wins, always. ”
    Bruh You still haven’t demonstrated on how being merciful and being able to punish with eternal torture are a contradiction and tbh i don’t think you even know what merciful means.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. Caliph ibn mumthaz

        @stew
        Tbh I kinda just stole your idea lol but seriously tho mercy would mean compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm. So Allah does do this so him giving eternal punishment to those who willingly and arrogantly deny him with no legitimate excuses is not contrary to him also being merciful as there are several ahadith that demonstrate it. The best example would be the 100 mercies hadith wherer it says that he showers his mercy on to creation including the animals and that would manifest through them taking care and showing mercy to their young ( I’m kinda paraphrasing here but this is basically the idea). It’s not only this but there ard several other instances. Also as heathcliff said like several posts a go sven is acting like that being merciful is his only attribute but he has other attributes like being severe in punishment.

        Like

  26. stewjo004

    @ QB

    Question, should our friend Sven go up on the “Wall of Shame” for refusing to answer:

    1. Why did Arabs call the Prophet(saw) a sorcerer?

    and

    2. Why should you be paid for doing work for someone else?

    I’m not 100% sure but it’s feeling like he should as he danced around these questions but I always welcome a second opinion? What do you think? 🤔

    Liked by 1 person

  27. mr.heathcliff

    “Like there are alot of crimes in our religion other than disbelieving that would doom one to eternal torture like murder, etc so idk where you got that idea from.”

    if a murderer were to repent and turn back to Allah, he would either have temp punishment or whatever god.decides, he wont be burning in hell like the arrogant disbeliever who willingly rejects the creator.

    Like

  28. mr.heathcliff

    schen, the thing with u guys is that u post comment after comment . you said:

    My point of view is that a being that presents itself as merciful indeed can’t possibly be doing those things. A contradiction in your book. Meriful and sending so many people to hell for eternal torture is not something that makes sense. I’ve read why you think it does and why other users think it does, and it still doesn’t sense to me.

    ///

    are you telling me that the being has no choice on how much mercy he can shower on the objects he creates? he cant give little bit of blessing, then a bit more and even carry it out to infinite degree?

    if he can cool the fires of hell and increase the blessings in heaven, then explain to me the problem of contradiction

    Like

    1. Caliph ibn mumthaz

      @heathcliff
      Yeah I’m aware of that but I’m just saying in the case if the don’t repent and are just doing those cuz of well the thrill of it or whatever, it would also warrant a severe eternal punishment from Allah so sven’s claim that eternal torture is not for the worst of the worst of humanity is false. And plus disbelieving does bring about huge consequences that we may not even comprehend. I mean who would imagine that an ideology that ( seen by others) as simply rejecting a creator would also be advocating for the legalisation if necrophilia, beastiality, etc. If these are results of simply rejecting a creator then no wonder disbelieving without no repentance would warrant an eternal punishment by Allah.

      Like

  29. Anonymous

    As a christian, I know that God is a merciful God, and never wants anyone to be tortured. he loves us all equally. Some of us are just to stubborn to realize it. I do not mean to say this accusingly, I have been stubborn like this as well, and realize that that was a big mistake. I believe that Jesus died for us to save us from the eternal punishment so that no one would have to suffer it. He just wants us all to be Good children of God. God is 100% real, whether you like it or not. If you want proof, there is physical proof available at this moment. It is called a Eucharistic Miracle. In a Eucharistic Miracle, the Eucharist, which we believe is Jesus himself, turns to literal blood and flesh. Many scientists have confirmed these miracles, and have even reported the flesh and blood being alive. They have been there for hundreds of years without decomposing, so that’s a miracle too. Another miracle is the incorruption of saints. Their bodies don’t decompose. Search both of these miracles up! Praise the Lord!

    Like

    1. Amazing! You make astounding claims and then say “look it up”. Why don’t you show us the evidence? Show one peer-reviewed study that confirms the so-called “Eucharistic miracle” or that the bodies of “saints” don’t decompose.

      Plus, if you believe that you literally eat flesh in your ritual, then you are a cannibal. This is pagan nonsense. How can you justify this?

      Like

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