Is the Torah like the Qur’an, or is it not?

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْم

….the disbelievers seek to refute the Truth using worthless arguments and took My signs and warnings as something to mock. (18:56)

 

So this blog post is a response to an article written by Shamoun (who you may remember has been refuted several times on the blog here, here and here) For simplicity sake the premise of their argument in the article Is the “Torah like the Qur’an, or is it not?” is as follows:

Premise 1

The Quran challenges mankind to bring something like it. The Torah is like it therefore the challenge has been answered. 

Premise 2

Furthermore, because the Torah is like the Quran it must be perfectly preserved otherwise how could human additions be confused by the pagan Arabs as “magic” due to the Torah’s eloquence in Q. 28:48-49, Q.46:7-12, and Q.74:24-25?

Well, once again our opponents never fail to show their lack of reading comprehension. Let’s first pull up the verse of the challenge real quick with some emphasis:

“If any are in doubt about what I have sent down upon My servant, then compose a chapter that is anything like this and call on any of the experts or supporters that you have except for God, if you’re telling the truth.” * [1]

“Or is this the case that they’re claiming: “He has made it all up?”  Tell them: “Then compose just one chapter like it, and call on anyone you like to help you except God if you’re telling the truth.” [2]

Or are they claiming: “He has made all this up?” Tell them: “Then bring ten chapters like it that you’ve made up, and call whoever you want ˹to help you˺ except for God if you’re telling the truth.” [3]

“Tell them: “If every human being and jinn worked together, they could not produce something like this Qur’an. Even if some acted as backup for the others, collaborating as best they could.” [4]

“Or are they saying: “He’s just made this all up?” No, rather the fact is they simply do not want to believe. Let them then produce a speech like this, if their claim has truth to it.” [5]

Since both books are from the same author (in this case God) mankind has not produced a text equal to God’s writing. Now that premise one has been answered, simple enough. So now what about the second part of their premise concerning corruption and magic? 

They start by quoting Ibn Kathir not realizing that not only does he disagree, but refutes their whole argument. I’ll just underline the other part of the sentence they seemed to have missed before demonstrating the duo’s poor research about what the pagan Arabs were talking about:

“the previous Scriptures that were revealed to the Prophets before me all testify to its truthfulness and authenticity. They have prophecied, well in advance, about things similar to that which this Qur’an informs of…[6]

So starting off their reference quoted regarding this passage has nothing to do with “eloquence” this was just one of those ever so notorious “reading in between the lines’ fallacies that their team does. Before getting into the meat of the discussion, some common sense is in order:

  1. How would the Arabs even understand the Torah to determine its eloquence to begin with? The Torah was in Hebrew while they spoke Arabic so the premise of their argument doesn’t even make sense at inception.

 

  1. None of the above passages say anything about eloquence (though we can assume the original Torah was because God’s speech is perfect) nor does it challenge them to “bring a chapter like the Quran or Torah ” it says something much different which will get to in a sec.

 

What they’re doing is reading what they want into the text as opposed to researching if the Quran in other places explains what the pagan Arabs are calling “magic” about it. So are their verses to give us more insight into what they’re talking about? Why yes there is:

It’s He who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was over water, in order to test which of you does better in their actions. Yet, if you tell them: “You’re going to be raised back up after death has come.” The disbelievers are sure to answer: “This is clearly nothing but magic.” [7]

But you’re amazed, while they mock, and when they’re reminded, they pay no attention, when they see a sign from God, they find a reason to make fun of it. They say: “This is obviously nothing more than magic. When we’re dead and gone, we’re then going to be resurrected, along with our ancestors?” [8]

The deniers are damned that Day. The same ones playing around in pointless activities. The Day they will be ruthlessly cast into the Fire, it will be said: “This is the Fire, which you used to constantly deny.” So is this magic? Or can you still not see? Now burn in it! Whether you bear it patiently or don’t, it’s all the same for you. You’re only being rewarded for what you used to do.” [9]

So as can clearly be seen the pagan Arabs are calling the concept of being resurrected for judgment “magic”. Even if one reads the passages they quoted it can clearly be seen that’s what’s being referred to:

“Who’s more lost than the one who calls on, instead of God, those who will never respond to them until the Day of Resurrection; who’s unaware of their prayers, and will deny their worship becoming their greatest enemies when mankind is gathered? When My verses are recited to them as clear evidence, those who disbelieve say about the Truth when it comes to them: “This is clearly just magic.” Or do they say: “He has made all this up?”  Tell them: “If I have made all this up, you won’t be able to do anything to save me from God’s punishment. God knows whatever you utter about it and He is enough to act as a witness between you and I because He is the Most Forgiving and Merciful.” Tell them: “I am not something new among God’s Messengers, nor do I know what will be done with you or I. I only follow what’s revealed to me, ˹and˺ My duty is only to clearly warn you.” Ask them: “Have you thought about this? What if the Qur’an was from God, and you reject it, even though a witness from among the Children of Israel has already testified to something similar, and believed while you were too arrogant?”  God doesn’t guide the people that do evil. Those who’ve disbelieved say about those who’ve believed: “If it had been any good to believe in this Book, they wouldn’t have believed in it before we did.” And when they refused to be guided by it, claim: “This is just the same lie from ancient times.” Before this was the Book of Moses as a guide and mercy, and this is a Book verifying it in the Arabic tongue to warn those who do evil as well as congratulate those who do good. . Have no doubt, those who say: “Our Lord is God” and then stay firm, will have no fear, nor will they know any long-lasting sorrow. They are the people of the Garden, there to stay forever as a reward for what they used to do. [10]

Furthermore, if they paid attention to the verses they quoted, what God tells Muhammad(saw) to say to the pagans further supports this conclusion:

“…Then produce a book from God that is a better guide than these two…”

Again it doesn’t say “produce a chapter like these two” it says produce a book that is a better guide. If one compares this in other chapters like Surah Saba:

He knows all that goes into the earth and all that comes out of it. He knows all that comes down from the heavens and all that goes up to them. And He is the Forever Merciful and the Most Forgiving. But still, the disbelievers say: “The Hour will never come to us.” Tell them: “Yes, I swear on my Lord, it will, by Him who knows all that’s in the Beyond.” Not even a particle in the heavens or earth escapes His knowledge, nor anything smaller or larger. It’s all recorded in a clear Record, so that He can reward those who believe and do good. And they will have forgiveness and a generous arrangement.But as for those who work against My revelations, seeking to undermine them, there will be a suffering of intense disturbance. Those who’ve been given knowledge can see that what’s been sent to you from your Lord is the Truth, and that it leads to the path of the Almighty, the One who is praised due to His very existence. But the disbelievers mock: “Would you like us to show you a man who will tell you that, when you’ve been shredded into pieces, you will be created again good as new?” Has he made up lies about God? Has he gone mad? No! Rather it’s those who don’t believe in the life to come who will suffer punishment and are in utter misguidance. [11] 

Like before they are mocking the concept of being resurrected but the end of the passage speaks about misguidance. Now, let’s bring it back to the end of Surah Qasas that they quoted with God finishing up the discussion:

“He is God; there is none to be worshipped and obeyed but Him. All the praise and gratitude is His in the worldly life and the Next. The Judgement is His; and you will be returned to Him.” [12] 

The chapter then proceeds to tell the story of Korah and what do the people warn him:

“Seek a home in the Next life with what God’s given you, but don’t neglect your rightful share in this one as well. Do good to others because God’s been good to you and don’t seek to spread corruption in the land, because God doesn’t like those who do this.”  [13] 

He went out among his people in his best clothes. Those who desired only the worldly life said: “If only we had been given something like what Korah has been given, he’s so lucky!” But those who were given knowledge said: “Damned are you! God’s reward is better for those who believe and do good but only those who are patient will be given it.”  [14] 

Have no doubts, He who has made the Qur’an binding on you will bring you back from where you came. So say: “My Lord knows best who brings true GUIDANCE and who’s blatantly lost.”  [15] 

And so the discourse of the chapter is refuting the pagan Arabs beliefs regarding thinking the Resurrection is magic and with that point premise 2 falls leaving no contradiction.

With that done, there were a few more points I would like to make on the article. Shamoun and his team seem to completely misunderstand Muslims. No Muslim on planet Earth argues the Torah is not divine, the argument is that:

A. They no longer have it

B. The Pentateuch is not divine scripture

Again I have to emphasize this as missionaries seem to have a hard time grasping this concept: The Torah is the Scripture God gave to Moses on Mount Sinai, not the tale of that one time he got it. For example Exodus 24 says:

Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people, who replied, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient…” Then the LORD said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and stay here, so that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commandments I have written for their instruction.”  [16] 

How can the text telling the story be the text Moses got on Sinai and read to the people? I would recommend readers to my previous article Corruption of the Scriptures to get a better grasp of what Muslims and the Quran is talking about versus what is being championed as God Scripture:

https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/

Now did I, the author, just make this up? No the Jews themselves testify to this, from Chabad.org:

“Before Moses, there were traditions. There were rituals, there were stories, there were ideas. There were writings, as well…Most likely, Moses had a few scrolls in his possession from more ancient times.

According to Rashi (Exodus 24:4), before Moses went up that mountain, he presented the Jewish people with an official version of the Book of Genesis, as well as part of Exodus—up to the event at which he was standing. I expect he relied heavily on some of those earlier manuscripts for his work, and that he tried to be consistent in style with his additions. That doesn’t make this any less a divine work. G‑d can work with editors just as well as He can with authors…” [17]

 

So again the Pentateuch is not the Torah. 

Now with that being said these passages about the Torah and the Quran actually help Muslims’ point not hurt it. Throughout the New Testament Jesus(peace be upon him) speaks to Jewish crowds and the Disciple with warnings about Hell which is a concept of the Resurrection, for example:

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? [18]

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. [19]

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell,e into the unquenchable fire. If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’ [20]

Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [21]

But what’s strange is this concept doesn’t really appear in the Hebrew Bible that is claimed in modern times to be the Torah, so these threats of punishment would be pretty empty to the Jews. It’s these small details such as this we Muslims are talking about when discussing their texts.

However, with that conclusion, the “problem” presented has been due to God’s grace resolved and may peace be on those who follow guidance.

 

References

* All translations of the Quran are the author’s personal

[1] Quran 2:23

[2] Quran 10:38

[3] Quran 11:13

[4] Quran 17:88

[5] Quran 52:33-34

[6] http://m.qtafsir.com/Surah-Al-Ahqaf/Refuting-Claims-of-the-Idolato—

[7] Quran 11:7

[8] Quran 37:12-17

[9] Quran 52:11

[10] Quran 46:5-14

[11] Quran 34:2-8

[12] Quran 28:70

[13] Quran 28:77

[14] Quran 28:79-80

[15] Quran 28:85

[16] Exodus 24: 6-12

[17]https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/280329/jewish/How-and-When-Was-the-Torah-Written.htm

[18] Matt 23:33

[19] Matt 5:22

[20] Mark 9:43-48

[21] Matt 25:41

 

20 thoughts on “Is the Torah like the Qur’an, or is it not?

    1. Amirul Afiq

      Assalamualaikum what kind of challenge does 28:49 put forth to the Arabs? What does it mean to produce a book that is a better guide than the Qur’an and the Torah?

      Liked by 2 people

      1. stewjo004

        @ Amirul Afiq

        My apologies I didn’t see your comment. The point is Allah is insulting the ppagan Arabs for having no Scripture (which is why they had an inferiority complex tot eh jews who had books, elaborate rituals etc) For example from the Quran:

        6:156. The pagans cannot now say: “The Scripture was sent down only to two groups before us, and we were completely unaware of their studies and teachings.”
        6:157. Or:“If the Scripture had been sent down to us, we would’ve been better guided than them.” Now an irrefutable proof, guidance and mercy has come to you from your Lord. So who could do a worse wrong than someone who turns away from God? I will soon compensate, on account of what they did, those who divert from My revelations with the worst kind of punishment.

        Liked by 1 person

  1. let’s go little deeper, when Christians tells us why don’t we follow the Torah which they have, what exactly do they mean? What’s ironic is, many Christians don’t even know what “TORAH” means. The word Torah means “to guide/teach” (cf. Lev 10:11). The meaning of the word is therefore “teaching”, “doctrine”, or “instruction” or commonly known as the Law.

    Now if the word “Torah” means teaching or instruction, then Muslims don’t have a problem with that let me elaborate. There are 613 Laws in the “TORAH” 613 instructions and rules, take for instance

    Not to commit sodomy with one’s father (Lev. 18:7)
    Not to commit incest with one’s father’s wife (Lev. 18:8)
    Not to commit sodomy with one’s father’s brother (Lev. 18:14)
    Not to commit sodomy with a male (Lev. 18:22)
    Not to do wrong in buying or selling (Lev. 25:14)
    Not to borrow on interest (Deut. 23:20)
    That one who possesses evidence shall testify in Court (Lev. 5:1)
    Not to steal personal property (Lev. 19:11)
    Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13) etc..

    Th above Laws are not a problem for Muslims. When you say TORAH, you mean LAW and INSTRUCTIONS. Why then do you expect us to believe in the 5 books of the Pentateuch, when there is only 613 Laws which make up the TORAH. Those laws also come with instructions. Why should we believe in the stories found within the Law? Those stories found in, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are meaningless since the Torah doesn’t mean stories why should we accept them. Think about it, the 5 books of the Pentateuch, speak of the creation and fall of man, how people fought each other, how kingdom and empire were built. How man defied God etc. within all those stories are the Law of God (Torah). Some laws were specifically for the Jewish Sabbatical and Jubilee Years others where for the Jewish court and judicial procedure. But many are still applicable for modern times, which Muslims wont have a problem with. Take for instance Not to slay an innocent person (Ex. 20:13) Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13) Not to turn one’s attention to idolatry (Lev. 19:4) To destroy idolatry and its appurtenances (Deut. 12:2-3) etc..

    Next time Christians tells you why don’t you follow the Torah, since it’s a revelation from your God. Correct them on what the Torah means. Torah does not mean the 5 books of the Pentateuch, i.e. the creation story, biographies of Prophets etc.. rather it means Laws, Instructions and teaching. Another interesting point is, Joshua on many occasions refers to the Torah as the “Law of Moses” even the New Testament, refers the Torah as the “Law of Moses”.

    When we say the Torah is corrupted we mean the “Law/Instructions/Teachings” have been corrupted. Also, why are there 613 laws, why not 650 why stop at 613? Was this divinely inspired or another handy work of the rabbis? Funny enough we have good reason to believe this was made up by a rabbi.

    The first report that the Torah contains 613 commandments dates to the third century CE, when Rabbi Simlai mentioned this concept in a sermon that is recorded in the Babylonian Talmud, Makkot 23b. The Talmud states: “Rabbi Simlai gave as a sermon [darash Rabi Simlai]: 613 commandments were communicated to Moses – 365 negative commands, corresponding to the number of solar days [in a year], and 248 positive commands, corresponding to the number of the members [bones covered with flesh] of a man’s body.” It thus appears that Rabbi Simlai invented the number 613 because it fit his sermon: A person should observe the Torah with all his body parts (248) every day (365). The two numbers add up to 613.

    As far as we know, no one thought there were 613 biblical commandments before Rabbi Simlai offered his sermon. In fact, 150 years before Rabbi Simlai, ben Azzai is quoted as saying that there were three hundred biblical commands. (Sifrei Deuteronomy 76) E. E. Urbach wrote: “In the Tannaitic sources this number [613] is unknown.” (The Sages: Their Concepts and Beliefs (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1987).

    Ibn Ezra (1089–1167) recognized that if one counts all of the divine commandments recorded in the Bible, the number would be well over a thousand; and that if only the commandments relevant to his day were numbered, the total would be less than three hundred. He wrote in his Yesod Moreh 2: “Some sages enumerate 613 mitzvot [divine commandments] in diverse ways By “diverse ways,” ibn Ezra meant that rabbis differed in what they included in the 613 “biblical commandments.” The most famous catalogue is that of Maimonides, discussed below, who included beliefs in his list. In contrast, Bachya ibn Pakuda (eleventh century) considered that only practical duties and not beliefs should be included, so he had a different list of 613 commands. Ibn Pakuda’s list appears in Sefer Torat Chovot Halevavot (Jerusalem: Feldheim, 1984)…but the truth is that there is no end of the number of mitzvot…and if we were to count only the root principles…the number of mitzvot would not reach 613.”

    So we can see from the above information, this 613 Law was made up by Rabbi Simlai. throughout time rabbis have been playing with the Law of Moses, thus the Torah is not prestige as it was delivered.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. stewjo004

      @ Mustafa

      First EXCELLENT points regarding the Torah of Musa(as) and this was something I never even thought of. So again thank you for that.

      Furthermore, good argument about how we still kinda obey the Torah. If you REALLY want to get into this (and to demonstrate how stupid some of these people who attack Islam are) Some early scholars held the opinion if in the even there was no ruling from the Quran and Sunnah we would transfer over a law from the Christians or Jews. Their evidence for this was because the Prophet(saw) at Badr didn’t know if we’d be able to take war booty because other nations were forbidden but then it was allowed. So they argued because he(saw) still was going to use a former rule it could have been applicable in other rules as well

      PS
      Your reference to 1 Samuel 17:34-35 is hilarious

      Liked by 1 person

  2. stewjo004

    @ Mustafa

    Oh, Subhanallah that’s funny I didn’t recognize you. How you been ahi?

    Yes, I find their texts have quite the knee slappers. If you REALLY want to laugh you should check out the Midrash of the Jews just straight up LOTR featuring Phoenix, golems, and monsters with two heads:

    “Tebel, the second earth, is the first mainland inhabited by living creatures, three hundred and sixty-five species, all essentially different from those of our own earth. Some have human heads set on the body of a lion, or a serpent, or an ox; others have human bodies topped by the head of one of these animals. Besides, Tebel is inhabited by human beings with two heads and four hands and feet, in fact with all their organs doubled excepting only the trunk. It happens sometimes that the parts of these double persons quarrel with each other, especially while eating and drinking, when each claims the best and largest portions for himself. This species of mankind is distinguished for great piety, another difference between it and the inhabitants of our earth.”

    https://www.sefaria.org/Legends_of_the_Jews.1.1.17?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

    Now some Christians might go well so what? The problem is:

    1. Many of this material in the Midrash and Talmud is earlier oral material
    2. These same dudes are the ones who guarded your text.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Alhumdulillah been good Akhi. JazakhAllahu Khair for your Academic papers. We learn a lot from your work.

    as for the Talmud and Midrash your right its all over the place. Talmud goes as far as saying Adam had sex with animals before Eve was created.

    R. Eleazar further stated: What is meant by the Scriptural text, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh? This teaches that Adam had intercourse with every beast and animal but found no satisfaction until he cohabited with Eve. (Yebamoth 63a)

    Liked by 1 person

    1. stewjo004

      @ Mustafa

      So they accuse Adam(as) of doing bestiality when it is haram for themselves. Yeah, these guys just have no respect for the prophets plain and simple.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Zakariya

        @stewjo004 @quranandbibleblog
        As salam alaikum, how would we respond to
        the christian argument that goes by:
        even is Islamic eschatology, Jesus (as) ascended to
        God (and has been up there for centuries) and will
        even come back, having most probably the most
        important role in human history, by killing the
        antichrist. They say that even in Islam, there
        are signs that Jesus (as) is divine.

        Liked by 2 people

    2. “as for the Talmud and Midrash your right its all over the place. Talmud goes as far as saying Adam had sex with animals before Eve was created.”

      This is actually sort of implied in the Genesis account in chapter 2:

      “18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

      19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

      But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.”

      Notice that it was the animals that were first used to keep Adam company. This could be the source for the Talmud interpretation.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. stewjo004

        @ QB

        Even though I personally would think they were presented before him. Having a LITTLE understanding of Jewish philosophical thought I can see how they came to that conclusion. (Seriously though the comedy show never ends)

        Liked by 1 person

  4. stewjo004

    @ Zakaria

    Walakum salam wa rahma tu lahi wa barakatu. Good question my response would be as follows:

    1. “Jesus (as) ascended to God (and has been up there for centuries)”

    Other prophets in their and our text ascended as well such as Elijah(as) and Enoch(as). If they argue about being alive for a long time that’s really not exclusive, we have the man in Surah Baqarah who asked God about the town and the Sleepers of the Cave

    2.. “…having most probably the most important role in human history, by killing the antichrist.”

    For one, who says this is the “most important role in human history”? Human history will continue even after Jesus(as). This belief is really born from their shirk of “dualism” between good and evil. Subconsciously, they believe like the Zoroastrians about God and Satan (whom they believe is the Anti Christ) that good and evil are locked in a struggle but good will win out in the end. We do not have this belief in Islam. Our beliefs is NOTHING is ever outside of God’s control. The Anti Christ is something God uses to test the people of that generation and if He wished He could have the Anti Christ heart to stop the moment he appeared. Allah hu alim but the wisdom behind bringing Jesus(as) back is he logically makes the most sense. One of the big points of contention between the Abrahamic religions is the status of Jesus(as).

    Jews =False prophet
    Christians=God
    Muslims=Prophet

    Through his(as) descent he is able to clarify his position to all 3 with decisive proof. If Muhammad(saw) came back (and I asked) they still wouldn’t believe.

    3. “They say that even in Islam, there are signs that Jesus (as) is divine.”

    Well, that’s easy because the problem is they have no idea what that statement encompasses. (As Allah says they do not value Him with His true Value) Let’s say their initial point was valid, they would STILL be wrong. The Anti Christ will perform miracles of a similar scale does that make him divine? No. Performing some parlor tricks means absolutely nothing. They do not understand what God is (despite claiming to) and really showing why the Anti Christ is a fitna. With these people, you would need to work it back to Tawheed (which is ultimately what we are and is irrefutable) and first get them to define at a very rudimentary level who and what God is TO THEM. Ask them, do they agree God is this:

    1. All-Knowing- Knows the past, present, future along with all its possibilities at the exact same time? And there is never a moment He is not aware of something.

    2. All Seeing- Can see the past, present, future, with all its possibilities at all points of view at the exact same time?

    3. All Hearing- Same

    4. Independent of Anything- Does not need to eat, drink, sleep, have sex, etc?

    When they agree to this. You then say:

    “Now anything that claims or people claim is God has to have those characteristics. Keep in mind, this is only FOUR of God’s actual attributes to us, so does Jesus(as) posses these attribute?” (If they say yes simply demonstrate him violating one of these)

    The problem with this person really boils down to, they say God is All-Knowing, Hearing, Seeing, etc but they have never REALLY thought what does that mean. And Allah hu alim.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Zakaria

      @stewjo004 Jazaka’Allah akhi, great points, I have seen this comment on a video recently, what do you think?
      ”The early Church was persecuted and so the idea that they had time to embellish their beliefs with supernatural stories seems absurd to me”

      Yeah I was thinking about that lately, how comes some christians had time to create false belifes about Jesus , as and attribute to him some things in the gospels, when the christian community was being persecuted?

      Liked by 2 people

      1. stewjo004

        @ Zakaria

        I’m sorry I didn’t see your comment. The easy answer is early Christians were NOT persecuted that is a myth.

        Like

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