Revisiting Ezekiel 16 and Biblical Views on Marriage and Puberty

On By quranandbibleblogIn Bible, Christianity, Judaism, Responses

            Previously, we discussed the significance of Ezekiel 16:7-8 with regard to the issue of marriage and puberty.  Christian sources agree that puberty was the requirement for marriage, but Christian apologists like Cerbie maintain that it is actually “post” pubescence that is the minimum requirement.  So let us revisit Christian commentaries on Ezekiel 16 to see what is the truth of the matter.

            David Guzik’s commentary is particularly helpful.  According to Guzik, verse 6 is referring to the period of Israel’s passage into “young adulthood”:

“Under God’s care Israel became larger, stronger, and more mature. They became very beautiful and came into young adulthood (your breasts were formed, your hair grew).”

Guzik also adds:

“According to Block, your hair grew refers to the metaphorical young woman’s pubic hair. “With the passing of the age of innocence and the arrival of sexual maturity, nakedness assumes moral overtones. Whereas the earlier nakedness had made the foundling vulnerable to the elements and marauding animals, now she stands exposed to dangers of a different sort.””

So we can see words like “maturity” and “adulthood” being used.  The implication is that Israel has become of marriageable age.  Israel is no longer a child, but a beautiful woman.  God even describes her physical traits, like breasts and pubic hair, both signs of adulthood.

 

60 thoughts on “Revisiting Ezekiel 16 and Biblical Views on Marriage and Puberty”

  1. Joel

    This is sad and stupid – is this really all you’ve got?

    So we can see words like “maturity” and “adulthood” being used. The implication is that Israel has become of marriageable age. Israel is no longer a child, but a beautiful woman.

    LOL!!!

    So, words like “mature”, and “woman” apply to a 9 year old? Of course, you have embarrassed yourself again. The text says that hair “GREW” and breasts had “FORMED”. Notice the past tense, child sex apologist? It doesn’t say “have sex when you get a couple of pubic hairs, or small bumps on your chest. It doesn’t say have sex when your hair is GROWING, or breasts are FORMING does it?

    This means that the onset of puberty as an excuse to mess around with kiddies isn’t found in the bible – only in the quran.

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    1. LOL!!!

      There goes Coco’s ignorance of biology again! Once again (pay attention now), puberty can vary. It can start as EARLY as 8 years in girls. This is a biological fact. Did you fail high school biology?

      When Christian commentators describe puberty as the age of maturation, embarrassed monkeys like Coco go on damage control! LOL!!

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      1. Joel

        hey stupid

        The bible text uses PAST TENSE to describe the maturity of the woman, it does not say “as soon as you see a pubic hair, or a tiny breast bump, then jump right on in!!!”, does it? Only a child sex apologist like yourself would try to push this idea.

        And, just like your ignorant profit, you think puberty is a moment in time – that;s because mohammed wanted to have sex with a 9 year old. In fact, puberty is process where the end product is maturity – you are a complete moron, and kiddie sex apologist.

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      2. “The bible text uses PAST TENSE to describe the maturity of the woman,”

        so the niphal perfect in hebrew WORKS exactly like the english past tense?

        ” And comest in with an excellent adornment, Breasts have been formed, and thy hair hath grown — And thou, naked and bare!”

        now how does saying “boobs HAVE BEEN formed…” imply that the woman IS mature ? hahahaha

        ” it does not say “as soon as you see a pubic hair, or a tiny breast bump, then jump right on in!!!”, does it? Only a child sex apologist like yourself would try to push this idea.”

        “tiny breast bump” ? yhwh wasn’t describing lizzie.

        do you think in those days pre-teens who matured faster than usual had “tiny breast bump” and “few pubic ” hair ?

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      4. How Young Is Too Young?
        An August 2010 study in Pediatrics found that by age 7, 10 percent of Caucasian girls, 23 percent of African American girls, 15 percent of Latino girls, and 2 percent of Asian girls had started developing breasts. “Every week, we see about 10 children with early puberty from all over the Bay Area,” confirms Suruchi Bhatia, M.D.

        The trend has alarmed both parents and doctors alike, who are now conducting research to determine why it’s occurring and what can be done about it. Although they don’t have all the answers, they do have some good news for parents whose children might be experiencing early puberty.

        /////

        now let me see, if i put on the “yhwistic porn goggles” then i would be saying as a pagan ancient hebrew god to these kiddies “breasts HAVE BEEN formed”

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      5. Heaven

        Also Mary being in early teens. Well there are many scholars who believe she was mid teens and if you read further of the Catholic encyclopedia it said Mary was 12-14 when engaged, but the annunciation took two years later. That makes her a post pubescent woman.

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    2. “The creative command turned into fact, and the baby grew into adolescence and sexual maturity, marked by breasts and pubic hair…” Allen, L. C. (2002). Vol. 28: Word Biblical Commentary : Ezekiel 1-19. Word Biblical Commentary (Page 237). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

      just two things .boobs and hair . thats all yhwh needed to pork israel. yhwh, according to your own beliefs, was a kiddie fiddler

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      Reply

      1. LOL!! So, the mere sign of puberty (“marked by breasts and pubic hair”) brings the baby into “adolescence and sexual maturity”! Coco’s dancing lies have been exposed yet again! Ouch!!

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      2. Heaven

        I laugh when you said big boob girl cause that is not what the stages of breast are. It’s the shape and not the size. Fully developed breast means at its adult shape. Not going from a cup to g cup. Even if size was included then breast development stops at late teen years.

        Verse 8 clearly shows that Yah even waited after puberty.

        What prove do you have that Hebrews didn’t have past tense? Even if they didn’t then verse 8 clearly shows post pubescent

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      3. Heaven

        Also in ancient Israel the legal adult age was the teen years, so a post pubescent teen was a woman or a man.

        Anyway any proof that Hebrew words don’t work like English past tense? I know their different languages, but that doesn’t mean the Hebrews didn’t have past tense. Also verse 8.

        Also Mary being in early teens. Well there are many scholars who believe she was mid teens and if you read further of the Catholic encyclopedia it said Mary was 12-14 when engaged, but the annunciation took two years later. That makes her a post pubescent woman.

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      4. Heabu

        Or what proof do you have that Hebrew past tense isn’t the same or close to English past tense? Hebrew language have past tense. Sure maybe it’s not English, but the translation is close enough and unless you can prove that original Hebrew meant present tense then you still have verse 8 about god waiting. Post pubescent. I’m sure the experts realize that using past tense for Ezekiel is correct. I haven’t found any sources that said the original language use pretense. Okay maybe Hebrew past tense isn’t the same cause different language, but when translated it will be past tense in English unless you can prove me wrong.

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      5. Heaven

        I did some research and Hebrew language don’t use past but prefect tense which is similar to English past tense. It refer to things that are completed and completed is past tense, so already done. Plus Ezekiel 16:7-8 doesn’t seem to a fit a girl in her second stage of puberty. Seem to fit more of a girl in her fifth stage. Again breast development is by shape not size. Maybe if you look up the five stages of breast development you’ll see that breast buds is more of breast that haven’t reach adult shape yet. Even small breast are at adult shape.

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      7. Heaven

        Also how can god be a kiddie diddler if Ezekiel is talking about a post pubescent women and some one who is at adult height (green is past tense)? If you think that is makes someone pedo then you are weird. Ezekiel was talking about a fully developed and legal adult. A woman who is post pubescent and a legal adult. Not some child. The Bible doesn’t support what you say. Your pedo mind is projecting.

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    3. Paulus

      Joel.

      Notice how pathetic these apologists for pedophilia are?

      In fact, they will ignore the actual context. They appeal to verse seven even though the verse specifically says “entered puberty”

      “I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty.”

      Then they ignore verse 8 which specifically says “later I passed by” and that only then was Israel “old enough for love”

      8 “‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love,”

      Since biblically sexual intercourse is linked with marriage, clearly such is post puberty.

      The pedophile apologists think that describing puberty is the same as marriageable age. What losers.

      Isn’t it amazing what lengths they will go to to try and drag everyone else into the cess pool of muhammadanism?

      And even then, Aisha was only 6, so even by muhammadan logic she was still too young for marriage. Which is why britney won’t be consistent and emulate his prophet on this.

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      1. LOL, hey Stew and Tony,

        You notice how pathetic these apologists for manworship are?

        In fact, they will ignore the statements of their scholars when it suits their purpose. Christian commentaries agree that verse 7 is referring to the period of sexual maturity. But the apologists think they know better.

        Notice also that they are STILL very vague on the age of consent. “Post” pubescence can mean a lot of things, and in most cases, it will still mean a minor from the modern point of view. So the problem doesn’t go away.

        Cerbie is so stupid, he doesn’t even realize there is a difference between betrothal and sexual intercourse. Aisha (ra) was betrothed at age 6. This was very common, even among Jews and Christians. Sexual intercourse did not occur until after she had begun menstruating. Menstruation is the biological signal that all ancient cultures used to determine that the body was ready to conceive a child.

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      2. To make things worse for the crosstians, a recent study showed that genetics plays an important role in the timing of puberty:

        “Senior author and pediatrician Dr Ken Ong at the MRC Epidemiology Unit says: “There is a remarkably wide diversity in puberty timing — some girls start at age 8 and others at 13. While lifestyle factors such as nutrition and physical activity do play a role, our findings reveal a wide and complex network of genetic factors.” (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140723131405.htm)

        Another study has shown that the age of menarche (first instance of menstruation) has historically varied in humans from age 7 to age 13. According to the lead author Professor Mark Hanson:

        “Children aged 10 and 11 are sexually mature, and neither they nor society are suitably prepared for the implications of that.” (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051201022811.htm)

        In the study, they found that:

        “…Paleolithic girls arrived at menarche – the first occurrence of menstruation – between seven and 13 years. This is a similar age to modern girls, which suggests that this is the evolutionarily determined age of puberty in girls.

        ‘This would have matched the degree of psychosocial maturation necessary to function as an adult in Paleolithic society based on small groups of hunter-gatherers,’ they write.

        Disease and poor nutrition became more common as humans settled, causing puberty to be delayed. Modern hygiene, nutrition and medicine have allowed the age of menarche to fall to its original range.”

        The authors also point out that:

        “…today there is a mismatch between sexual maturity and psychosocial maturity, with sexual maturity occurring much earlier. This mismatch is a result of society becoming vastly more complex, with psychosocial maturity therefore taking longer to reach.

        ‘For the first time in our 200,000 year history as a species, humans become sexually mature before becoming psychologically equipped to function as adults in society,’ explains Professor Hanson.”

        In other words, for the vast majority of human history, sexual maturity and psychosocial maturity coincided, but this has changed in modern times.

        Finally, according to the “Encyclopedia of Children’s Health”, puberty can be separated into “stages” in both boys and girls. In girls, the stages are:

        Stage One (approximately between the ages of eight and eleven): The ovaries enlarge and hormone production starts, but external development is not yet visible.

        Stage Two (approximately between the ages of eight and fourteen): The first external sign of puberty is usually breast development. At first breast buds develop. The nipples will be tender and elevated. The area around the nipple (the aureole) will increase in size. The first stage of pubic hair may also be present at this time. It may be coarse and curly or fine and straight. Height and weight increase at this time. The body gets rounder and curvier.

        Stage Three (approximately between the ages of nine and 15): Breast growth continues and pubic hair gets coarser and darker. During this stage, whitish discharge from the vagina may be present. For some girls, this is the time that the first menstrual period begins.

        Stage Four (approximately from ages 10 to 16): Some girls notice that their aureoles get even darker and separate into a little mound rising above the rest of the breast. Pubic hair may begin to have a more adult triangular pattern of growth. If it did not happen in Stage Three, menarche (first menstruation) should start now. Ovulation may start now, too. But it will not necessarily occur on a regular basis. (It is possible to have regular periods even if ovulation does not occur every month.)

        Stage Five (approximately between ages 12 and 19): This is the final stage of development. Full height is reached, and young women are ovulating regularly. Pubic hair is filled in, and the breasts are developed fully for the body.

        Read more: http://www.healthofchildren.com/P/Puberty.html#ixzz5MJpI4qn2

        Notice that the first menstrual period can begin as early as age 9, but can also occur as late as age 16, and ovulation (the release of the oocyte from the ovary) also begins around this time. This is when the body is capable of conceiving a child.

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      3. “Then they ignore verse 8 which specifically says “later I passed by” and that only then was Israel “old enough for love””

        hell bound idolatrous kafir , yhwh is PASSING by the young girl with big boobs and pubic hair .she is standing naked and yhwh is passing her, then jehova wants to have sex with her

        and I see thee, And lo, thy time [is] a time of loves,

        jehova WENT up close hell bound filthy kafir to have sex with “big boobs” israel.

        quote :
        8One day Elisha was passing through Shunem, where a wealthy woman lived, who urged him to have a meal.

        jehova PASSED the woman and seen her in her NAKED state and wants to have sex with her.

        again :

        and I see thee, And lo, thy time [is] a time of loves,

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      4. your bible is defo porno man. lol

        god wanting to have sex with a big tit girl with pubic hair, then this big tit girl seeking

        Study the Bible
        Easy-to-Read Version
        Ezekiel 23:20
        She remembered her lover with the penis like a donkey and a flood of semen like a horse.

        wtf , this is absolutely disgusting porno. you christians are meant to PICTURE this just like you are meant to picture eating flesh and drinking blood. lol

        btw, do children seek IDOLATROUS gods? no they don’t. thats why we say that the text is most likely describing jehowa wanting to have sex with pre-teen INNOCENT child who has big boobs.

        your filthy pedofillic bible is very sickening .

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      7. Joel

        q and bs

        You will go to any length to defend your pervy profit – even lie about academic research.

        This is a summary of the findings of Hanson’s work regarding puberty at the time of your profit…

        At the start of agricultural settlement 2,000 years ago, the age of menarche increased. Girls weren’t able to reproduce until they were a few years older, around 15 years of age.

        During the industrial revolution, the average age of menarche increased to 16-17 years, likely a result of overcrowding and poor childhood nutrition and hygiene.

        So, at around the time of your profit’s kiddie lust, puberty occurred later than it does now – Aisha was 6 when mohammed married her, and 9 when he had sex with her. That makes her at least 5 years younger than the average age when girls were physically capable of reproducing.
        http://theconversation.com/twelve-going-on-20-are-girls-reaching-puberty-earlier-1383

        Funny how facts always seem to backfire on islamic apologists.

        That aside, even though the age of sexual maturity is gone back down to a younger age, that does not change the fact that pregnancy in girls under 15-16 is dangerous for them and their offspring.

        Adolescent females may be more susceptible to STDs than older women. Teen girls have fewer antibodies to STDs and may have a higher risk of cervical infections.
        The maternal death rate for teens under age 15 is two and a half times greater than that of mothers aged 20 to 24.
        Babies born to teens younger than 15 are more than twice as likely to weigh less than 2,500 grams (about 5.5 pounds) at birth and are three times more likely to die in the first 28 days of life than babies born to older mothers.

        See how merciful your profit was? Now millions of muslim men think they can have sex with 9 year olds whose bodies are not strong enough to carry babies and who produce sicker babies and are themselves more susceptible to illness.

        And then there is this…

        Her body is clearly not defined for pregnancy with its short stature,” Al-Khan said. “Her chest is not extensively developed for breast tissue, her bones aren’t quite fused, and once you expose a child this young to high amounts of progesterone and especially estrogen, there is (a possibility) that it could halt her growth.”

        Al-Khan said other medical challenges facing a pregnant girl as young as 10 or 11 include:

        — The pelvis is not defined for natural childbirth;

        — The vagina could sustain injury during a natural birth;

        — The patient is at high risk for preeclampsia, a pregnancy condition marked by high blood pressure and protein in the urine, and which can lead to convulsions and multi-system organ failure;

        — A higher risk of pre-term labor and delivery, which would mean the baby’s size would be compromised, leaving the baby at risk for developmental issues, fetal growth restriction and chromosomal abnormalities;

        — Higher incidence of stillbirth;

        — Higher incidence of cholestasis of pregnancy, a condition caused by the blockage of bile, which can lead to stillbirth and placenta issues;

        — A chance of developing fatty liver, which can be fatal.

        Thank fully, Aisha never – as far as we know – became pregnant, or it could be that her immature 9 year old body was not able to sustain pregnancy, even though you insist she was “sexually mature”.

        So the problem for you and mohammed is that even if puberty starts at 7, and kiddies are sexually mature enough to get pregnant, their little kiddie bodies are not mature enough to handle pregnancy. Only adult bodies are designed to safely carry babies.

        You are despicable to try and defend mohammed’s sick kiddie lust. What is sad is that I suspect you would probably ever, ever touch a kiddie because you know it is disgusting to do so, yet you HAVE to defend the practice because your silly religion proclaims your profit to be the best example in all things for all time – even though he sinned.

        Repent of this nonsense before it is too late.

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      8. “You will go to any length to defend your pervy profit – even lie about academic research.”

        LOL, Coco is going into damage control! Let’s see your “research” skills, shall we?

        “So, at around the time of your profit’s kiddie lust, puberty occurred later than it does now – Aisha was 6 when mohammed married her, and 9 when he had sex with her. That makes her at least 5 years younger than the average age when girls were physically capable of reproducing.”

        LOL, what a moron! You still don’t get it that there is NO set number. This was the AVERAGE age, which means it could be earlier or later as well. How long will you be an idiot?

        Here is what Gluckman and Hanson’s study ACTUALLY says:

        “With settlement, childhood disease and postnatal undernutrition became common 44, 45 and therefore the average age of menarche was delayed. This matched the increasing complexity of society following the development of agriculture, settlement and population aggregation, which in turn led to the differentiation of social tasks and the creation of societal hierarchies. Roman law assumed that females matured by the age of 12 [46]. As hygiene deteriorated with increasing population density, the age of menarche was delayed, particularly in Europe.”

        So, they were talking about agriculture in a European context, not a Middle Eastern one. Queue the dancing monkey! Bwhahahaha!

        “That aside, even though the age of sexual maturity is gone back down to a younger age, that does not change the fact that pregnancy in girls under 15-16 is dangerous for them and their offspring.”

        Hahahahaha, there go the crocodile (or is monkey) tears, again!

        So are you telling me that your god chose to be born to a 12-14 year old virgin despite knowing the danger that posed to her?

        “See how merciful your profit was? Now millions of muslim men think they can have sex with 9 year olds whose bodies are not strong enough to carry babies and who produce sicker babies and are themselves more susceptible to illness.”

        Idiot, I am not arguing that young girls should get pregnant. I am saying that in older societies, this was normal. Again, for the vast majority of human history, young girls were becoming mothers. This was true of EVERY society, including Biblical ones. If your god was so worried about the dangers of early pregnancy, why didn’t he prescribe strict rules against it? Why did he instead allow young girls to be taken as slaves in Numbers 31:18? Your crocodile tears will not work, nor will your pretense as an objective researcher.

        “Thank fully, Aisha never – as far as we know – became pregnant, or it could be that her immature 9 year old body was not able to sustain pregnancy, even though you insist she was “sexually mature”.

        So the problem for you and mohammed is that even if puberty starts at 7, and kiddies are sexually mature enough to get pregnant, their little kiddie bodies are not mature enough to handle pregnancy. Only adult bodies are designed to safely carry babies.

        You are despicable to try and defend mohammed’s sick kiddie lust. What is sad is that I suspect you would probably ever, ever touch a kiddie because you know it is disgusting to do so, yet you HAVE to defend the practice because your silly religion proclaims your profit to be the best example in all things for all time – even though he sinned.

        Repent of this nonsense before it is too late.”

        Hey dummy, you still have YET to prove that anything harmful happened to Aisha (ra).

        Amazingly, your god chose to be born to young girl, which according to modern medicine, was an extremely risky thing to do. Imagine if your god had died during birth or been stillborn! Maybe he would have learned at that point to choose an older woman to serve as his “mother”! LOL!

        Yeah, take your own advice and repent of this nonsense before it is too late. Now go back to your dancing, moron! 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

      9. Joel

        q and bs

        Here’s the link for above…
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/2010/02/05/girl-11-gives-birth-to-baby-boy-in-northeast-hospital.html

        And here explains why mohammed’s ignorance in lusting after a 9 year old is dangerous for the 9 year old…

        Any 10-year-old who is pregnant has already been abused significantly by somebody,” he said. “That probably should go without saying.”

        Nor are 10-, 11- and 12-year-olds remotely prepared to care for a baby, Wall said. But the risks are physical, as well.

        “The placenta preferentially will take nutrition from the mother, who really is a child,” said Sherry Thomas, an ob/gyn at Mission Community Hospital in Panorama City, Calif. That means that the developing fetus will leach calcium and other nutrients from a child who should still be growing herself. Likewise, pregnancy puts a major strain on the cardiovascular system, according to Wall. Pregnant women have about 50 percent more blood circulating through their bodies compared with non-pregnant women.

        and…..

        The greatest danger, however, is to the pelvic floor. Girls may start ovulating and menstruating as early as age 9, though the average is around 12 to 13. (Some studies suggest that the average age of first menstruation is dropping, but the data is not conclusive.) Just because a girl can get pregnant, though, doesn’t mean she can safely deliver a baby. The pelvis does not fully widen until the late teens, meaning that young girls may not be able to push the baby through the birth canal.

        The results are horrific, said Wall and Thomas, who have both worked in Africa treating women in the aftermath of such labors. Girls may labor for days; many die. Their babies often don’t survive labor either.

        The women and girls who do survive often develop fistulas, which are holes between the vaginal wall and the rectum or bladder. When the baby’s head pushes down and gets stuck, it can cut portions of the mother’s soft tissue between its skull and her pelvic bones. As a result, the tissue dies, and a hole forms. Feces and urine then leak through the hole and out of the vagina. Women with fistulas are often divorced and shunned. And young girls are at higher risk.

        “The younger you are, the more trauma will occur, because the pelvic floor isn’t developed enough,” Thomas said. In that way, she said, the young Colombian girl was fortunate to have access to a hospital that could provide a caesarean section.

        As growth tends to slow in girls once menstruation starts, a 10-year-old capable of getting pregnant is likely to be especially small, with a small pelvis, Wall said. And even if puberty onset is happening earlier (Wall isn’t entirely convinced by the current data), pelvises are certainly not maturing any faster, he said. If puberty does occur earlier, that would put young girls at risk for dangerous pregnancies for a longer period of time.

        “It’s heart-wrenching,” Thomas said. “It’s just overwhelming to see these young women pregnant and delivering.”

        The key part here is where it says Just because a girl can get pregnant, though, doesn’t mean she can safely deliver a baby. The pelvis does not fully widen until the late teens, meaning that young girls may not be able to push the baby through the birth canal..

        Get it? Being sexually mature does not equate to physical maturity and most often leads to great harm to kiddies – what a merciful religion your profit brought to the world.

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      10. “So the problem for you and mohammed is that even if puberty starts at 7, and kiddies are sexually mature enough to get pregnant, their little kiddie bodies are not mature enough to handle pregnancy. Only adult bodies are designed to safely carry babies.”

        how did your mothers god pop out jesus from tight space?
        lol

        + if a PRE-TEEN gave birth (christians were the BIGGEST PRACTICIONERS of pre-teen marriage ) , then we would have RECORDS of pre-teen CESAREANS AND PRE-TEEN DEATHS. morality would have been very high.

        Liked by 1 person

      11. Coco’s crocodile tears obviously do not extend to Mary or the millions of other young mothers throughout human history. Now, of course, I am not saying that young girls should get pregnant. As the previous article I cited states, in modern times, sexual maturity and “psychosocial” maturity do not usually align. But for the vast majority of human history, this was not the case.

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      12. think about it, the MORE pre-teen marriages , the MORE mortality , because they would not be able to bring forth the child. the question is , where is the evidence ? where is the evidence for NUMBER of mortalities of PRE-TEEN girls who got pregnant ? where is the evidence for a number of CESAREANS performed?

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      13. Paulus

        @Joel.

        Great work exposing these perveted pedophile apologists.

        Not only do we know that they will misuse the bible only be refuted by the very next verse that they ignore, but we know know that they will misuse science aswell!!

        I think you are right though. Britney won’t be consistent and follow his prophet (thankfully). But he’s stuck having to defend the indefensible. I imagine it’s torturous psychologically as he lays there at night stewing over his blog and the beatings he gets, secretly hating what his profit did and hoping Allah doesn’t know his thoughts.

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      14. Bwhahahaha, hey Coco, your cheerleader buddy is thanking you for crashing and burning like you usually do!

        Where have you been Cerbie? You ran away like a dog with its tail between its legs.

        I showed that there was nothing wrong with people getting married at an early age for most of human history. In modern times, things have changed. Sexual maturity and social maturity no longer align. But they did in the past. Your crocodile tears will not save you. The fact remains that your Bible did not say that people could get married at age 18, like modern laws say. From the modern perspective, your god was allowing pedophilia and child abuse! No wonder you ran for your life when confronted with the evidence from Numbers 31 and Ezekiel 16, supported no less by your own scholars! LOL!!

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      15. Paulus

        @Joel.

        Isn’t it amazing how Muslims think a Christian scholar saying a text is describing puberty means that such is the marriageable age!

        But in true muhammadan fashion, britney didn’t cite verse 8, nor the commentary on that verse which refuted his claim…

        “Spread My wing over you: “The phrase in v. 8 describes the symbolic act whereby the husband took his wife under his protection (Ruth 3:9).” (Wright)

        b. I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you: Above protecting and providing for Israel, God entered into covenant relationship with them. It was a covenant marriage, and God could say, “you became Mine.”

        i. “In earthly inter-relationships, the marriage relationship is the highest in sanctity, because it is the highest in the experience of Love. By this figure, then, God sets forth for us what His heart feels for us, and what He desires from us in return. His love is of the strongest and tenderest, and He looks for a return of that love in uttermost loyalty.” (Morgan)”

        It’s only post puberty that “marriage” is entered upon 😂😂😂 no wonder britney chose not to copy paste the rest of his source…

        These muhammadans just keep getting pounded.

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      16. Awww, isn’t it cute you guys? How Cerbie is trying to have a conversation with his girlfriend?

        Apparently, Cerbie sees nothing wrong with the fact that his god was looking over the NAKED Israel and commenting on her pubic hair! 😂😂😂

        And notice how Cerbie is still using vague phrases like “post puberty”. When is “post puberty” Cerbie? Why do you keep running away from providing a definite answer?

        These crosstians just keep getting pounded, which is why they run away and desperately avoid answering any questions.

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      17. Joel

        q and bs

        You idiot. You posted the study to try and prove your profit was not a perv for lusting after a 6 year old, now that your dishonesty has been exposed, you are saying that the study doesn’t apply to the Mideast? You moron.

        So are you telling me that your god chose to be born to a 12-14 year old virgin despite knowing the danger that posed to her?

        You shirker – you will commit blasphemy to defend your profit’s actions. Are you really going to compare mohammed’s lust for s kiddie to miraculous act of god? LOL!! It just proves that muslims equate mohammed to god.

        Idiot, I am not arguing that young girls should get pregnant. I am saying that in older societies, this was normal. Again, for the vast majority of human history, young girls were becoming mothers. This was true of EVERY society, including Biblical ones.

        That is exactly what you are saying – if mohammed did, it is exemplary. These are the words of your god. That is the problem you have. There is no evidence in the bible of kiddie sex being permitted.

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      18. “You idiot. You posted the study to try and prove your profit was not a perv for lusting after a 6 year old, now that your dishonesty has been exposed, you are saying that the study doesn’t apply to the Mideast? You moron.”

        Coco you idiot! I showed the study to prove that puberty and menstruation (what’s the deal with menstruation by the way, 😉 ) can vary, and HAVE varied for most of human history. You countered by claiming that the age increased to around 15 when humans settled as agriculturalists. But this was a SPECIFIC example regarding Europeans. Ergo, that age does not apply to other ethnicities or regions.

        “You shirker – you will commit blasphemy to defend your profit’s actions. Are you really going to compare mohammed’s lust for s kiddie to miraculous act of god? LOL!! It just proves that muslims equate mohammed to god.”

        LOL, you manworshiper! Was not your god born to a 12-14 year old virgin? Did she not undergo labor? By impregnating her, did your god not put her in danger, as you claimed regarding girls of that age getting pregnant?

        “That is exactly what you are saying – if mohammed did, it is exemplary. These are the words of your god. That is the problem you have. There is no evidence in the bible of kiddie sex being permitted.”

        HAHAHAHA! Numbers 31:18 you moron! Ezekiel 16:7 you moron! In the latter, your god was checking out a naked, pubescent girl!

        As I said, and as the study I cited proves, the age of marriage and sex has fluctuated throughout history. There was nothing wrong with it as long as there was maturity, both sexual and social. This has changed in modern times. Therefore, in following the example of the Prophet, we should shun child marriage because modern children do not mature as fast as children in ancient times did. The requirement for marriage is maturity. This is the prophetic example.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. stewjo004

    @ Qb

    I love how their both quiet on Numbers and the “Taph” (which more or less ends the argument)

    What about Dinah? Jacob(as) was going o marry his daughter to her rapist Shechem. How old was Dinah according to the Jews:
    Tractate Sofrim (last chapter) says that Dinah was 6 years old.
    Midrash Sechel Tov (to Gen. 34:4) says she was 8.5 years old.
    Similarly, R. Saadia Gaon and R. Bahay say (to Gen. 34:3) she was 8 years and 1 month old.
    R. David Ganz (Zemah David, Year 2206) records opinions that she was either 9 or 10 years old.

    And again what about David and Abishag? David was 70 and she was 12

    King David’s Marriage To 12 Year Old Abishag – Bible

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    1. LOL, Cerbie has been avoiding Numbers 31:18 like the plague ever since the epic beating he took!

      Notice that while Dinah’s age is not a matter of certainty, none of the Jewish sources reckoned her age as older than 10. They had no reason to make up her age. And the fact that Jacob was going to give her to Shechem shows that she was already considered of marriageable age.

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  3. Assalaamu alaikum bros,

    Though I agree that marriageable age for pre-moderns included or began at puberty unlike modern sensibilities where a later age is fixed for “recommended” reasons, not for “essential” ones, I am concerned with the tone of the discussion:

    “And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.” Qur’an 6:108

    Abu Umamah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I guarantee a house on the outskirts of Paradise for one who leaves arguments even if he is right, and a house in the middle of Paradise for one who abandons lies even when joking, and a house in the highest part of Paradise for one who makes his character excellent.”

    Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4800

    Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to An-Nawawi

    Haytam ibn Jamil reported: I said to Malik, “O servant of Allah, if a man has knowledge of the Sunnah, should he argue to defend it?” Malik said, “No, rather he should convey the Sunnah if they might accept it from him, otherwise he should remain silent.”

    Source: Jāmi’ al-‘Ulūm wal-Ḥikam 1/248

    Further details, see https://abuaminaelias.com/arguing-about-the-religion-in-islam/

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    1. Walaikum as-salaam brother and thank you for the comment. I do agree that being respectful is preferred, but sometimes it is almost impossible. When dealing with haters and trolls, having a reasoned discussion is probably not gonna happen.

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  4. faiz, stew and shaad

    check this out

    if there was a human being who has taken a beating worse than jesus, then it would be lizzie schofield. i believe that she has taken horrendous intellectual beating that the poor woman is completely suffering from some kind of post intellectual beating trauma

    she says that “jesus has the potential in him to do x , y and z”

    this kafir forgot one ayah:

    [ Surat As-Saffaat 96]
    Allah created you and your deeds

    so any CREATED “power” is FROM ALLAH

    jesus has NO potential in him, it is all “activated” by his CREATOR. jesus is ABSOLUTELY powerLESS being .
    NO muslim believes that UNCREATED POWERFUL BEING resides in jesus WHEN jesus and everything he does IS CREATED BY THE UNCREATED.

    if we go by her logic, then her pathetic pantheistic view would mean that jesus NEEDS PERMISSION to activate a potential within him, what kind of a PATHETIC god needs ANOTHER to bring about his OWN power to do x, y and z?

    + ALLAH says “kun” WHO IN THE ENTIRE CREATION can say “kun” or who has been given the ability to say “kun” ? WHO has been given the ability to CREATE OUT OF NOTHING ?

    no one, nothing, except the CREATOR of jesus.

    your thoughts ?

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    1. 12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

      “Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
      and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
      13 So the sun stood still,
      and the moon stopped,
      till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,

      //////////////

      using her understanding, joshuas voice box MERGED with yhwhs voice box and joshua did not even need any permission. hahaha” joshua SAID….”…..this means joshua ACTUALLY had SAME power like yhwh.

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    2. Walter

      Oh well, i wonder if her brain has the capacity to sustain the lowkey Arianism creeping in…may Jesus senpai help her once his dad gives him permission, so let’s keep our fingers crossed that Heavenly dad is in a good mood today…

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      1. “For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.”

        when you command something ,you are in power and control over what comes out of its mouth. so let see….daddy need to give jesus COMMAND to say “i am”

        “yhwh” needs to be COMMANDED in what to say.

        Liked by 2 people

      4. “Oh, I’m just waiting until I have enough time to embarrass you even more in a suitably long post.”

        okay, save that time and try to see how well you do here

        UnknownJuly 20, 2018 at 8:45 AM
        hi, my name is paulus. i am a chicken shit who likes to attack islam.

        Reply

        barryJuly 23, 2018 at 3:56 PM
        Ok…did you have any comments about the debate Flannagan and I were having?

        Reply

        https://turchisrong.blogspot.com/2018/07/god-and-genocide-atheist-answers.html

        are you gonna employ your “enough time” and rescue yhwh ?

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      6. joel, with the red cheeks you have received , why don’t you increase your redness by willingly offering your cheeks to jones ? be like your saviour joel, be a victim of abuse, let thy cheek get bloody red.

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  5. stewjo004

    @ Joel
    May you please explain to us Numbers and the “taph”?

    Or

    What is the “proper” ae of marriage then? And why do the Jews agree with the Muslims on the subject?

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    2. stewjo004

      @ Joel

      As a note, because I didn’t see the rest of the comment about how “dangerous it is to get pregnant under 15” therefore it’s wrong. Assuming that’s true, it’s also dangerous to get pregnant over 40 but that doesn’t make it a sin. Both Sarah and Elizabeth were pregnant at 80 but that doesn’t mean there was a sin involved. Again you’re confusing your culture with Scripture. I’m hearing lots of opinions but no references being quoted.

      Again for the people critiquing puberty:
      1. Where does the Bible say marriage at puberty is a sin?
      2. What is the “proper” age of marriage? Why do Jews agree with Muslims that it’s puberty?
      3. What’s up with Numbers and the “taph” (aka “little girls”) given away?

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      1. Joel

        stew

        As a note, because I didn’t see the rest of the comment about how “dangerous it is to get pregnant under 15” therefore it’s wrong. Assuming that’s true, it’s also dangerous to get pregnant over 40 but that doesn’t make it a sin.

        It is not a sin if you are “prophet” who cares only about satiating your own sexual desires – christians, on the other hand, are commanded to love others as you love yourself. Does that need explaining to you? Would you want to paricipate in an activity that would be harmful to you just to satisfy someone else? That makes you a masochist if you would.

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      2. Heabu

        Where does the Bible say marriage at puberty is a sin?

        Not everything in the Bible is us to follow. Some are just recordings.

        2. What is the “proper” age of marriage? Why do Jews agree with Muslims that it’s puberty?
        Which stage cause their are five stages. This book seem to suggest the last stage. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/952875/jewish/Ishut-Chapter-Two.htm#footnote5a952875 Chapter two verse 7

        “3. What’s up with Numbers and the “taph” (aka “little girls”) given away?
        We don’t know if they have sex with them right now. “

        They could’ve waited. Plus that doesn’t mean it was the norm. Just some war crime. Moses order it not God. Will God judge him later in the after life for that? I hope so.

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    1. stewjo004

      @Heaven

      Since you wanna get into the box, down the line:

      1. Not everything in the Bible is us to follow. Some are just recordings.

      Ahhhh the classic cop out. There is no condemnation and then laws are given (more in a sec)

      2. What stage
      Irrelevant they’re all still to be “child marriages”

      3. Moses(as/)/War crime

      Oh I love how you all throw prophets under the bus. Okay then, here’s the passage:
      https://biblehub.com/bsb/numbers/31.htm

      A. Where is the condemnation from YHWH?

      B. Yes we do know they had sex with them, one its obvious from context as them being virgins is emphasized. But let’s bring in the good Hebrew professor Shaye Cohen to explain:

      ““Moses enjoins upon the returning warriors to kill their Midianite female captives who have lain with a man, but ‘spare for yourselves every young woman who has not had carnal relations with a man’; WE MAY BE SURE THAT ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ MEANS THAT THE WARRIORS MAY ‘USE’ THEIR VIRGIN CAPTIVES SEXUALLY…“I do not know why the new Jewish version omits ‘for yourselves’; the Hebrew LAKHEM IS UNAMBIGUOUS. That the intent of ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ IS SEXUAL OR MATRIMONIAL IS OBVIOUS; the passage is correctly understood by Rabbi Simeon Yohai in the Sifrei ad loc (177 212H).”

      And what’s this from Elliot’s commentary?

      Keep alive for yourselves.—The Israelites were ALLOWED TO MAKE SLAVES OF THEIR CAPTIVES. Shortly after the capture of these Midianitish women, and, it may be, as arising out of it, the law concerning MARRIAGE WITH CAPTIVES was enacted. (SEE DEUT. XXI. 10-14.)”

      So the laws of Deut, came down afterward (further showing YHWH’s approval) let’s read them:

      “When the LORD your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. Take her to your home, where she will shave her head,+ cut her fingernails, and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

      So yes, Moses did nothing wrong according to the Bible unlike you being so quick to throw him under the bus. We can further prove this as multiple prophets in the Bible have young wives, another good proof of this is Rebeak and Isaac. So no amount of mental or verbal gymnastics will make this subject go away for you guys

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