So what did the early church fathers say about faith and good works. Was salvation simply a “gift” that was received via faith alone? Or did Christians need to do good deeds also in order to be “saved”? Once again, we find the church fathers disagreeing with the lying dog of hell, our friend Cerbie. The nightmare begins anew:
- Origen (185-254), “Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6).
- Gregory of Nyssa (330-394), “Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8).
- Chrysostom (349-407), “He that believes in the Son has everlasting life.” Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,’ someone will say, ‘in order to have everlasting life?’ By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord! Lord!” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven’, (Homilies on the Gospel of John 31:1).
Some apologists will point out that other church fathers, like Clement of Rome, believed that only faith saves. But actually, Clement believed that both were needed:
“And we, therefore…are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning” (1 Clement, ch. 32:4).
“We should clothe ourselves with concord, being humble, self-controlled, far removed from all gossiping and slandering, and justified by our deeds, not by words” (30:3).
So, once again, we see Cerbie’s personal opinions shot to pieces by the early church authorities. This is just getting sad now!
The Quran and Bible Blog 
@ Qb
https://media1.tenor.com/images/aeee80ee41103536a606c8635eaa0e69/tenor.gif?itemid=5227254
Ahh, this is so terrible… but qb how can this be… Joel said we got “owned” in the comment section?
So are Paulus and Joel mainstream Christians or they one of the many early Christians? Or have they just formed their own religion?
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Bwhahahaha!
I think these losers have been embarrassed by living in secular countries for so long that they have been forced to “reform” their religion in various ways. This just happens to be one of them. They have clearly departed from what the earliest Christians believed.
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“They have clearly departed from what the earliest Christians believed“
Sure, if one selects only certain texts. Let’s humiliate your lies and hypocrisy
Clement (80-140 A.D.): So all of them received honor and greatness, not through themselves or their own deeds or the right things they did, but through his will. And we, therefore, who by his will have been called in Jesus Christ, are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight of religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. (Clement, Clement’s First Letter, 32.3-4) [1]
Justin Martyr (100-65 A.D.): No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer . . . are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account.
Augustine (354-430 A.D.): “Having now to the best of my ability, and as I think sufficiently, replied to the reasonings of this author, if I be asked what is my own opinion in this matter, I answer, after carefully pondering the question, that in the Gospels and Epistles, and the entire collection of books for our instruction called the New Testament, I see that fasting is enjoined. But I do not discover any rule definitely laid down by the Lord or by the apostles as to days on which we ought or ought not to fast. And by this I am persuaded that exemption from fasting on the seventh day is more suitable, not indeed to obtain, but to foreshadow, that eternal rest in which the true Sabbath is realized, and which is obtained only by faith, and by that righteousness whereby the daughter of the King is all glorious within.” NPNF1: Vol. 1, Letter 36, 25. [3]
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“Justin Martyr (100-65 A.D.): No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer . . . are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account.”
like i said before, swimming in blood of jesus and sinning , but what was the problem with goats and sheep? wasn’t their blood innocent ? what wrong did a sheep do?
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@ Paulus
To begin this Augustine isn’t even talking about faith and salvation he is talking about if fasting and the legal nuances that are required (which he says yes btw which is a good deed)
Please reconcile your faith belief with James and more importantly Jesus(as)
And finally, please answer if a Christian wrongs another person are they forgiven or do they have to account for it?
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I guess you missed the part about obtaining only by faith?
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He said that fasting was still “enjoined”. Did you miss that part, you dunce? It seems you like to quote even your church fathers out of context! 😂
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Obviously you didn’t realise that Christians fast haha
We just don’t parade it for others to see.
Fail again
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So there you have it folks! Cerbie just admitted that Christians fast! But why do they have to fast if salvation is by faith alone? Bruce Jenner, eat your heart out!
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The same reason we pray perhaps?
😂😂😂😂
Or perhaps according to you praying grants salvation? (Oh wait, that’s Islam 😂😂)
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😅😅😅
He still doesn’t get it! You have shown that salvation is achieved by faith and deeds! If it was a free gift, then faith would be sufficient. But you have admitted that it is not!
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As we have seen in brother Stew’s article, good deeds like prayer are the result of faith. If you tried praying without believing in Allah (swt) or His messenger, then your prayer is useless and will not save you. Epic fail, Cerbie. All your wickets are gone!
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Faith is sufficient for salvation. Godly living is the outworkings of faith, not an addition to. Not a prerequisite. How many times will you ignore this?
Our deeds are done in thankfulness and to “be holy as God is holy”.
Islam is works based. Your works are done to appease Allah and gain entry to jannah.
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😂😂
I already quoted Clement, you dingbat! Confused are we, Cerbie? 😂😂😂
Either Clement was confused like you are, or he understood that good deeds were also needed. He said:
“We should clothe ourselves with concord, being humble, self-controlled, far removed from all gossiping and slandering, and justified by our deeds, not by words (ch. 30:3).”
Did you get that? Justified by deeds!
As for Justin Martyr, all he was saying is that the temple sacrifices are no longer needed. Of course, that would contract Ezekiel (I have humiliated you on this before), but that is different issue. So let’s humiliate you in another way and expose you further as the charlatan and deceiver that you are. Here is what Justin Martyr said elsewhere:
“Those who are found not living as he taught should know that they are not really Christians, even if his teachings are on their lips, for he said that not those who merely profess but those who also do the works will be saved (cf. Matt. 13:42, 43; 7:15,16,19)” (The First Apology of Justin, ch.16).
OUCH!! That has got to hurt!
As for Augustine, what’s your point? As brother Stew pointed out, Augustine was only talking about fasting on certain days. But he clearly said that fasting was required of Christians! So do you fast, Cerbie? Of course you don’t. You are just a sinner just like your savior!
But let’s humiliate you further. Here is what Augustine said about good deeds:
“How speedily are the prayers of people who do good works heard! For it is precisely in fasting, alms, deeds and prayer that our righteousness in this life consists” (In Ps. 42 Enarr. I, 8).
So, poor Cerbie is in the same situation as before. The church fathers evidently followed a different religion from the one Cerbie is following.
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You misquoted, as per usual. Because clearly Clement was no muhammadan 😂😂 as I proved
Like usual, you try to read everything through your muhammadan glasses.
Fail.
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“I am persuaded that exemption from fasting on the seventh day is more suitable, not indeed to obtain, but to foreshadow, that eternal rest in which the true Sabbath is realized, and which is obtained only by faith, and by that righteousness whereby the daughter of the King is all glorious within.”
Augustine is here conspiring the sabbath rest to eternal life which he says, is obtained only by faith.
These muhammadans are so ashamed of their religion and it’s soteriological confusion that they even try to muhammadise history 😂😂😂
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These crosstians are so ashamed of their religion and its myriad number of confusions that they even try to misquote their own church fathers! 😂😂😂
According to Augustine, Cerbie is an “unintelligent person”! LOL!!
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I think you need to go back to the madrassah and ask them to teach you how to read in context.
Remember, this isn’t the koran
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“We should clothe ourselves with concord, being humble, self-controlled, far removed from all gossiping and slandering, and justified by our deeds, not by words (ch. 30:3).”
Clements point here isn’t soteriological. He is essentially saying, don’t be a hypocrite. Let your actions speak, not your words.
But nice try. Sorry to expose you for the fraud you are
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HAHAHAHA, the pathetic loser just cannot admit that he is wrong! So now you are trying to provide a commentary on Clement? Other Christians disagree with you:
“Clement believed that both Christ’s and Paul’s teaching held that if the latter is missing, the former is barren (cf. Mt. 7:21; Lk. 13:24; 1 Cor. 13:2; 15:1,2; James 2:14ff).
Clement taught that the Christian moral life is imperative for salvation, that faith and obedience is what God considers righteousness. Clement points out that our actions—our good deeds prompted by faith—is what God reckons as righteousness…” (https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/salvation-from-the-perspective-of-the-early-church-fathers/).
Face it, Cerbie. You are just a loser who can never admit when he is wrong. Your pride keeps you from doing so. But you know that the Bible says. Pride goes before the fall! 😉
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You’re merely citing a RC position. Shall I start citing Shias as sunnis?
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Bwhahaha, so now Cerbie is trying to bring sectarianism into the debate? Need I remind you that Clement was a bishop in the Catholic church?
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“Those who are found not living as he taught should know that they are not really Christians, even if his teachings are on their lips, for he said that not those who merely profess but those who also do the works will be saved (cf. Matt. 13:42, 43; 7:15,16,19)” (The First Apology of Justin, ch.16).“
I have no problem with this statement, because again it’s not saying why you want it to say. He is rebuking people whom merely profess without outwardly performing good deeds as an expression of their faith. He isn’t saying that works gain entry to heaven as per your muhammadan lies.
Nice try. Epic fail
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LOL!! Justin is saying that good deeds must accompany faith, you idiot! Again, let’s quote another Christian:
“The Eastern Father Justin Martyr echoes the teaching of Ignatius insofar as he makes it clear that it is not those who “merely profess” Christ, but those who “do the works” the Saviour commanded that will be saved…”
Nice try, liar. Epic fail!
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I agree with you. They do accompany faith. But they don’t grant entry to heaven.
Epic fail
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Justin said that a person cannot be saved solely by faith, Cerbie. Epic fail…
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What nonsense. His point is the same as Jesus, if you profess without good deeds, then your faith is clearly false. Deeds are the demonstration of the faith, but only faith saves as I’ve proven!
You lose buddy.
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😅😅😅
Cerbie the cheerleader! If you need to do good deeds to be saved, then salvation is not by faith alone! Thank you for finally admitting it! You lose buddy!
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Well it is, because justification is a legal declaration by faith alone. Once justified, ie saved, then good works are a demonstration of saving faith. Not an adddition to, or combination of.
Because of your brainwashing you can’t disassociate justification from sanctification. No wonder you parade RC themes.
You’ve been exposed for misusing the fathers so now you simply pretend that I’m saying what you want me to say.
I’d hate to be your wife… geez
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There you go, lying for Jesus again. The church fathers said that one is not saved on faith ALONE. Get that through your head. You have admitted that a person cannot be saved by faith alone. Saying “good works are a demonstration of saving faith” is just your pathetic attempt to prevent yourself from admitting that you have been exposed. Here is a simple question for you: Can a Christian be saved by believing in Jesus (faith), but not do good deeds (works)? It seems to me that Islam and Christianity are similar in this regard, but I just want to see your answer. Consider this a test of your honesty. You’re actually more close to Islam than you think! Keep going Cerbie!
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“I agree with you. They do accompany faith. But they don’t grant entry to heaven.”
you damaged born in sin pagan, WHY are you doing them then? to make yourself feel better ?
to make your god feel better? to make your god happy ? to make people happy ?
i have faith….let me do deeds…otherwise i am accountable before god because of my actions….. WHAT kind of retardedness is this ….what has happen to your damaged nature?
“but they don’t grant entry to….”
but they do make your god happy /pleased ?
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“How speedily are the prayers of people who do good works heard! For it is precisely in fasting, alms, deeds and prayer that our righteousness in this life consists” (In Ps. 42 Enarr. I, 8).“
Again, Augustine is talking about this life. It’s not a soteriological statement on heaven. Exactly the same as Justin above.
Three strikes and you’re out!
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Again, Augustine is talking about doing good deeds as a necessity for salvation. Let me humiliate you further by showing how Augustine condemned people like you as “unintelligent persons”:
“Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” [Romans 3:28] have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. Impossible is it that such a character should be deemed “a vessel of election” by the apostle, who, after declaring that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision,” [Galatians 5:6] adds at once, “but faith which worketh by love.” It is such faith which severs God’s faithful from unclean demons,-for even these “believe and tremble,” [James 2:19] as the Apostle James says; but they do not do well. Therefore they possess not the faith by which the just man lives,-the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life. But inasmuch as we have even our good works from God, from whom likewise comes our faith and our love, therefore the self same great teacher of the Gentiles [apostle Paul] has designated “eternal life” itself as His gracious “gift.” [Romans 6:23]”
All wickets out, Cerbie! You’re done!
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Can you even read? Every citation is above people who profess faith but don’t demonstrate good deeds. Such is hypocrisy. And I agree with that!
You are so pathetic you can’t even differentiate between salvation and godly living. Clearly your quick google searches are embarrassing you 😅😅😅
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LOL, but you’re the one who is saying that salvation is “free gift”! Are you so stupid that you can’t see the contradiction? If salvation is achieved by faith alone, then good deeds should not matter. This is the point that Stew has been pressing you on, and which you refuse to answer. All of the church fathers we have looked at stated that good deeds must be done in order for a person to be saved. That contradicts your claim. You are so pathetic that you can’t even admit that. 😅😅😅
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“even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. “
Get that? Read it again. That’s the context. You and tony must be good pals 😀😀
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“Context”? Do you even know what that is?
What’s your point? Augustine clearly says that good works are required for salvation. Ergo, your laughable claim that salvation is a “free gift” is complete nonsense. Stop lying for Jesus, your sinful savior.
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“All of the church fathers we have looked at stated that good deeds must be done in order for a person to be saved“
Except they didn’t. They all said good works are a demonstration of true faith. Faith precedes deeds. Faith saves, deeds don’t. They demonstrate that such a person is saved.
You and stew keep pressing a straw man. That’s all. You can’t help yourself but islamise everything. You guys are so brainwashed you can barely think reaonably
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Hahahaha, except that they said that faith without works is useless. Therefore, faith ALONE cannot save. You are a loser and a liar. Face the facts.
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I agree with your first sentence. Problem is, your second doesn’t logically follow from the first.
The only liar is the person deliberately misusing the fathers for his agenda hint hint
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Hahahaha, we have seen you throw the church fathers under the bus when they disagree with you. Now you are frantically trying to keep them on your side.
And you JUST ADMITTED that good deeds are a NECESSITY for salvation! Thank you once again! Case closed, Cerbie. If good deeds are a necessity, then your BS about justification by faith alone is just a lie. You have been caught red-handed.
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First point for the 3rd time, what happens to a Christian who believes and wrongs another person on the Day of Judgement?
Two are you excomunicating
ANY Christian that sins?
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As a last note you said the deed has no effect on someone’s judgement in the Next Life. Okay so let me ask does this concept in Christianity exist?
If you give charity it removes sins. Like the Prophet(saw) said that charity extinguishes sin like water extinguishes fire.
Does this exist in Christianity? If it does why does a deed effect sin?
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@ Paulus
So are you just ignoring my questions (again) because you had time to write all that but not answer any of them?
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Your question is asking me to be God. What happens to a Muslim who commits adultery but fasts every year? I’m guessing you aren’t God either?
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Actually, if he asks for forgiveness sincerely and tries his best not to do it God will forgive him according to Islam.
Your theological belief state Jesus(as) being the lamb takes on the sin for you and so you are not accountable before God. However, what wasn’t taken into account is sin comes in 2 parts:
1. Wronging yourself
2. Wronging others
What you consider God’s “perfect justice” is compromised because there is no trade (like in Islam where good or bad deeds would be exchanged) either:
1. God holds the Christian accountable (which then the belief Jesus takes on all sin is false)
2. He allows the Christian no accountability and thus His justice according to your beliefs is compromised because a person was wronged and He allowed it.
Moving to the other topic, good I’m glad we both accept God doesn’t require or is appeased by blood sacrifices so there is no need for Jesus(as)
Finally, you said deeds don’t affect someone’s status in the hereafter so you must have missed my question does the concept that charity removes sins in Christianity exist? For example, the Prophet(saw) said that charity extinguishes sin like water extinguishes a fire.
Does this exist in Christianity? If it does why does a deed effect sin?
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That’s why there is no point answering your questions. You don’t listen. You have an agenda and regardless of my explanation you will just fabricate things.
“Your theological belief state Jesus(as) being the lamb takes on the sin for you and so you are not accountable before God.“
This entire premise is incorrect, which makes your hidden agenda completely false. Of course we are accountable to God. But the difference between you and me is you think your good deeds will outweigh your bad (weirdly given you argued against works based salvation last thread. Contradiction much?) I think I will be counted as righteous because of Christ.
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“Moving to the other topic, good I’m glad we both accept God doesn’t require or is appeased by blood sacrifices so there is no need for Jesus(as)“
You and Britney both have a logic problem. Your conclusions never correlate to your premise.
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@ Paulus
As for your “appease” comment, you believe you have to “appease” God with blood (which is a good deed according to you)
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Lie.
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“Except they didn’t. They all said good works are a demonstration of true faith. Faith precedes deeds. Faith saves, deeds don’t. They demonstrate that such a person is saved.”
faith :
1. do you get scared ?
2. do you doubt your faith?
3. do you fear death ?
4. when you sin, is your “golden egg” / faith never affected ?
is “faith” something INDEPENDENT of you ?
5. do you BELIEVE all stories in the bible ? do you doubt even one bit?
DEEDS
1. are your “good works ” MENSTRUAL rags /unclean ?
2. when you sin today, tomorrow and in the future, do you tell yourself that you need to do more “DEMONSTRATIONS ” ? / “good works”
3. if “faith” is what SAVES and puts you in heaven , then what about SINCERITY in performing the DEED, i mean, for example : when i gave charity i really did it for god, then does that mean SINCERITY is god given GIFT ?
4. according to you, prayer (action) , charity (action) , helping someone (action ) , fasting (action) , is an IMPORTANT requirement when someone has “faith” ?
5. if one is not DOING enough “actions,” then does that mean one should worry about not doing enough ?
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“This entire premise is incorrect, which makes your hidden agenda completely false. Of course we are accountable to God.”
WHY are you accountable to god? for what? are you accountable to god even if you have faith ?
define accountable :
accountable
adjective
responsible to someone or for some action; answerable
which actions ?
list the actions which will screw you over
“But the difference between you and me is you think your good deeds will outweigh your bad”
god is doing the “weighing ….”
its all in gods sight, knowledge and power…..
but the testimony of faith outweighs , because it is the reason why the weighing will take place in the first place.
“(weirdly given you argued against works based salvation last thread. Contradiction much?) I think I will be counted as righteous because of Christ.”
hahahahahaha lol, so you are not ACCOUNTABLE for your actions, your god is LOOKIng at SOMEONE else and “covering” with that. the “righteousness” is not even REAL it is “because of….”
meaning you are covering the fathers face with jesus’ blood or “righteousness”
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How are you accountable if someone else comes in takes the sin? You circumvented your accountability using Jesus like how a drug kingpin circumvents the law by hiring the top lawyer he can find. Shifting blame to someone else it is literally the exact opposite of accountability. However as can be seen in my question I asked you, which is a very real possibility the concept comes crashing down. Either the Christian is, accountable or not accountable before God for this sin and either premise is flawed. Deeds are VERY easy to get(smiling at somebody or picking up trash from the road for example) and God multiplies this by a minimum of 10x because of His mercy.
Next, we both agree that salvation is based on faith and doing good is an expression of that faith. Where we differ is in the accountability for doing evil. To make this simple, the Devil has more faith in God then everyone on this blog combined, but he does no good which is why he will be punished in Hell. Samething you have certain laws in the Bible if this happens you seek forgiveness and have to do this as part of repentance.
The problem with the Christian concept is there is transitionary period when faith enters into the heart that is not being accounted for. Christians seem to think by having faith a “switch” gets turned in the person just automatically start being perfect the next day which we both know is not the case.
As for my other part, regarding sacrifices this was not related to the above section I said you believe blood sacrifices were necessary which constitutes a good deed must be done and you said no that’s a lie. So, therefore, neither is Jesus(as) in obtaining God’s forgiveness. Which you now said Christians are still accountable.
@ Paulus
I said you believe God requires blood sacrifices and you said that God does not need blood sacrifices.
stewjo004
@ Paulus
As for your “appease” comment, you believe you have to “appease” God with blood (which is a good deed according to you)
Paulus
Lie
Finally, you never answered does giving charity take away sin in Christianity?
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Before I clicked I meant to add that deeds are just an extension of faith and God’s mercy (as can be seen how the above situation I gave to you could be solved with them) They do not appease God in any way any command ordered by God is for our benefit that’s it.
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Lol thanks bro…yeah i’m fine, getting ready for tomorrow’s exam..and what about you? Still in the business of wrecking paganic jesusian polytheists i see, hard cheese i can’t join the fun, have to study ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Good lord i wonder how my comment ended here…
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stew
This is why I reject Islam – either it attracts intellectually dishonest folks like yourself, or it shapes individuals into being intellectually dishonest. Which is it for you?
Do you really think that “blame” and “accountability” are the same thing? This is the point of christian belief that you are too dishonest to represent properly: we are to blame, Jesus accepts accountability. See, not hard is it?
This is why it has been so easy for a single christian apologist to completely own all of you mohammedans. You guys just can’t reason logically.
This doesn’t even make sense – no christian believes the dishonest nonsense you have written. The whole point of jesus’ sacrifice is because we are imperfect. This is basic christian doctrine.
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jelly :
Do you really think that “blame” and “accountability” are the same thing? This is the point of christian belief that you are too dishonest to represent properly: we are to blame, Jesus accepts accountability. See, not hard is it?
////////////////////
thats like a christian watching porn and then jesus says “pour that porn on me….pluck out my eyes….you continue to use your eyes….everytime you watch porn….just remember that i accepted the transferal of your porn crime….
”
The whole point of jesus’ sacrifice is because we are imperfect”
so you are DAMAGED from birth and you believe jesus whispers in your ears and tells you “give me that lust baby …..throw it on me like a self abuser begging for rape ”
since you are damaged and your heart thinks nothing but porn, lust, adultery, hate, filthy, temptations…..and that your crimes were TRANSFERRED because jesus willingly wanted to get abused by the FILTH that you do….tell me WHY DO you repent IMPERFECT crosstian criminal ?
james white says “even my REPENTANCE isn’t good enough….”
this means white thinks that faith, trust and repentance doesn’t really help a DEFORMED crosstian.
jesus willingly went to get murdered because you GET AWAY from the crimes you do.
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” This is basic christian doctrine.”
complete and utter lie. christians do believe that jesus became MURDERER, CRIMINAL, RAPIST , THUG, HOMOSEXUAL….you are a heretic.
jesus became GUILTY of these crimes on the cross thats why paul says
jesus BECAME a curse….
when jesus BECAME CURSED, this means he BECAME MURDERER, RAPIST, HOMOSEXUAL, ADULTERER . meaning when he was in that STATE, he was RIGHTLY BLAMED .
blame
/blām/
verb
1.
assign responsibility for a fault or wrong:
since jebus BECAME CURSED, then AUTOMATICALLY he is BLAMED FOR all the wrong doings , in that state he is CURSED criminal .
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Good job exposing Coco. These crosstians do not follow the Bible. They make things up whenever it suits them and blatantly lie through their teeth.
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@ Joel
So you’re telling me when Tyrome the street thug decides to become Christian he stops smoking blunts, going to the club or trying to talk to every girl with a pulse? I didn’t say this is Christian doctrine I mean it as this is what happens to a person when faith enters their heart. It takes a moment to transition to becoming good especially how far in sin the person was in.
As I said with Paulus, the problem with this intercession is you compromise justice. I’ll ask you the same question: If a Christian wrongs someone regarding money in this life on the Day of Judgement what happens to the Christian? Does Jesus(as) bear the “blame” and thus the Christian get away with cheating the person OR does Jesus(As) NOT bear the blame thus refuting Jesus(as) bears ALL blame and compromising the whole point of modern Christianity theology in regards to Jesus? In Islam because deeds are an extension of God’s mercy and justice He renders judgment between the disputing parties on the scales adds or subtracts accordingly.
In regards to your adultery argument.
1. Stoning was sent by God before and people were stoned in the Bible so He has (or had) no issue with it. (Which is why we never see Jews making these types of arguments)
2. If God allows someone’s evil to be exposed and then His punishment is carried out He does not punish them twice for the same sin. In His mercy, He punished them in this life so that they either stop or don’t get punished in the Next which is far worse.
Finally, so you don’t reject Islam based on the beliefs about God, you just don’t like Muslims. Now that actually saddens me I’m sorry if I offended you and may God guide you to Islam and allow the love of His religion and the believers to enter your heart. Ameen
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You don’t need to apologize to Coco, brother. He is a hate-filled bigot who makes ridiculous arguments against Islam.
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stew, stew, stew…
Tyrone??!! That is a name commonly associated with African-Americans – classic that you would cry “bigotry” whilst resorting to racial stereotype to illustrate “street thugs”. LOL!!
That aside, again, your dishonesty – inherent, or learned – rears its silly face. I clearly stated that it is islam that attracts intellectual dishonesty or fosters it – muslims are the victims, unless you are being willfully dishonest.
No one is good but God – are you now claiming that muslims can become “good” like god?
Unlike muslims, christians don’t claim to be able to predict the actions of their God. Jesus teaches the forgiveness of sin and genuine repentance.
Dude, what is the problem with your reading comprehension? Sinners are to blame, Jesus holds the accountability, thus God’s justice is perfect because all sin is paid for and forgiveness is merely a matter of acceptance.
This is not a response to my comments about stoning. Q and BS claims that human beings can absolve people of sins by murdering them when both Christians believe that only God can absolve people of sin. What this amounts to is human sacrifice. You guys are claiming that by murdering someone you can remove their sin – human sacrifice to appease a god.
Worse still, if you don’t murder apostates and adulterers, you become sinners yourselves. So, by murdering others, you save yourselves and sacrifice someone to absolve them of their sin.
LOL!!
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“Dude, what is the problem with your reading comprehension? Sinners are to blame, Jesus holds the accountability, thus God’s justice is perfect because all sin is paid for and forgiveness is merely a matter of acceptance.”
That’s exactly the problem Coco! Thanks for proving how utterly bankrupt your religion’s view of “justice” is! Your god’s idea of “justice” is that as long as “someone” pays for the sin, then everything is hunky-dory. That is NOT justice, you moron! That is a miscarriage of justice. To hold someone else accountable, even though the sinner is to blame, cannot possibly be called “justice”.
By the way, do you realize that Tyrone is an Irish name too? Your crocodile tears will not save your racist savior!
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“Dude, what is the problem with your reading comprehension? Sinners are to blame, Jesus holds the accountability, thus God’s justice is perfect because all sin is paid for and forgiveness is merely a matter of acceptance.”
the only way for a “perfect ” god too atone for sins is by punishing a “righteous meat puppet”
the wicked/sinners cannot give him that feeling of appeasement , only a “perfect” meat can cool him off
now the question is, if the only way to release from punishment is by punishing “perfect meat” then can ANY sinner be DESERVING of punishment ?
i mean ,can 1 million years of punishing a sinner in hell appease gods “perfect ” justice when the only way is for him to create “perfect meat” and pour on that perfect meat ?
QUOTE :
! nay, as if this were not depth enough of baseness to crown all heathenish representation of the ways of God, that the suffering of the innocent is unspeakably preferable in his eyes to that of the wicked, as a make-up for wrong done!
QUOTE :
Not all the suffering that could be heaped upon the wicked could buy them a moment’s respite, so little is their suffering a counterpoise to their wrong; in the working of this law of equivalents, this lex talionis, the suffering of millions of years could not equal the sin of a moment, could not pay off one farthing of the deep debt. But so much more valuable, precious, and dear, is the suffering of the innocent, so much more of a satisfaction—observe—to the justice of God, that in return for that suffering another wrong is done: the sinners who deserve and ought to be punished are set free.
/////
NOW think about it…..humans cannot be DESERVING of gods punishment because in crosstian theology the rape of “righteous meat” is what cools of god. god likes “sinless meat”
so from justice point of view, jesus was not ONLY deserving of punishment but he was RIGHTFULLY blamed for ALL christian SINS.
QUOTE :
verb (used with object), blamed, blam·ing.
to hold responsible; find fault with; censure:
christian watches dirty thing on tv, yhwh TRANSFERS the sins and POLLUTES jesus….jesus becomes CURSED…jesus is RIGHTFULLY BLAMED.
“all justice is paid for” the SUFFERING of another and termination of another gives this filth bags the feeling that “all justice is paid for ”
this ATTITUDE only encourages sinful behaviour because now what ever SIN u do , you will take in lightly in front of your god.
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“when both Christians believe that only God can absolve people of sin.”
hahah where does the bible say that ? yhwh the pagan god shares his authority and power with mere mortals all the time.
why is this a problem from the biblical perspective ?
quote :
You shall make a rosette of pure gold and you shall engrave on it the engravings of a seal ‘holy to Yahweh’ (or, ‘and you shall engrave on it the engravings of a holy seal…), “You shall put it on a blue cord that it may be on the turban, on the front of the turban. It shall be on Aaron’s forehead and Aaron shall bear/remove/forgive … the guilt of the holy things that the sons of Israel sanctify for all their holy donations; it shall always be on his forehead,… (Exodus 28:36-38, Fletcher-Louis)
Then again in Leviticus 10:17
Why did you not eat the sin offering in the sacred area? For it is most holy, and God has given it to you in order that you may remove/forgive … the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement on their behalf before the LORD.
Fletcher-Louis:
Such passages convey the idea of the high priest having the power to remove guilt, to forgive sins. We know that some Jews took these passages to mean that the high priest’s job was to take away—to forgive—sin because in 2 Enoch 64 his contemporaries come to Enoch at the site of Israel’s future temple, they fall in reverential prostration before him, kiss him and say:
2 Enoch 64.5 You will be glorified in front of the face of the LORD of all eternity, because you are the one whom the LORD chose in preference to all the people upon the earth; and he appointed you…to be the one who carried away the sin of mankind (J recension; A recension has ‘who carries away our sins’) and the helper of your own household.
Enoch has already been installed as high priest in chapter 22 (vv. 8-10) and here he does what Exod. 28.38 and Lev. 10.17 say he should do: he takes away the sin of the people. (p. 73)
“What this amounts to is human sacrifice.”
who is offering the human ?
” You guys are claiming that by murdering someone you can remove their sin”
from biblical perspective why is this a problem, yhwh empowered people to do this all the time.
” – human sacrifice to appease a god.”
punishing the guilty and removing his sin (yhwh allows this in ot ) is like HUMAN sacrifice ?
“Worse still, if you don’t murder apostates and adulterers, you become sinners yourselves.”
well what happens if you do not do punishment law which god commanded you to do, what did yhwh say ?
“
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LOL, I love how the crosstian is accusing Muslims of committing “human sacrifice”! Hypocrisy much? Earth to crosstians: your religion teaches that God died in a human body to atone for people’s sins! What’s that called? DING! DING! DING! Yep…human sacrifice!
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there is so much shirk in bible and jewish and christian writings that i find it funny that this crosstian is telling muslims about absolving and not absolving . i thought yhwh gave a human body the ability to forgive sins ? isn’t jesus a MUSHRIK in the flesh ? i mean why are you hypocrite, DOG! ?
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He’s a monkey, bro. Not a dog. Just clarifying. 😉
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q and bs
You are an idiot.
Christian theology does not claim that “anyone” or “someone” can pay for sins – you are obviously an ignoramus about what christians believe. LOL!!
Try to use your brain. I’ll do this slowly so that your two brain cells can follow along. For christians, God himself in his infinite love for his creation has taken the payment of our sins upon himself.
Allah is clearly a false god – according to you, any human being can murder an apostate or adulterer and it will absolve them of sin. This is shirk since only god can forgive sins. What stops muslims from apostatizing or becoming adulterers since the punishment guarantees forgiveness of sin?
Why does allah want you to commit human sacrifice to appease him?
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“Try to use your brain. I’ll do this slowly so that your two brain cells can follow along. For christians, God himself in his infinite love for his creation has taken the payment of our sins upon himself.”
lol …love takes the form of a god willingly RAPING himself with all crimes , so that this (joel )damaged criminal can feel confidence in himself that he is GUARANTEED heaven if he believes that god WILLINGLY wrecked his CREATED meat puppet /himself
NOT ALL the persons/beings in trinity WRECKED themselves .
infinite love in crosstianity means WILLING WRECKING of finite CREATED body , then “infinite love ” means RELATING to yhwh THROUGH remembering the WRECKING of FINITE CREATED body hahahahahahah what a joke .
your god LEFT YOU with cross, WOUNDS and blood hahahaahahaahah
it is not “love” which is motivator for this pagan god…but sins CAUSE THIS god to PUNISH himself
SINS are too strong for this god so he has NO CHOICE but to PUNISH himself ,in other words it is PART OF his NATURE to PUNISH himself .
god didn’t come down because of love BS, god came down to FIX problem between the persons in the trinity and to COOL himself off
punishing the son is a way for the father to go through ritual therapy
”
Allah is clearly a false god – according to you, any human being can murder an apostate or adulterer and it will absolve them of sin. ”
if those dirty new testament writers were jews and thought that god could give power and authority to mere mortals (FLESH ) , then i ask, FROM A “SECONDARY” point of view why can’t the humans be “sin ABSOLVERS”
in the world of NT AND OT, this would not be a problem at all
was the human jesus who used his HUMAN mouth , a DIRTY polythiest when he said “your sins are forgiven”
THATS THE 100 % flesh speaking….no body heard the HEAVENS SPLIT OPEN and hear god say “your sins are forgiven”
“This is shirk since only god can forgive sins. What stops muslims from apostatizing or becoming adulterers since the punishment guarantees forgiveness of sin?”
well idiot , unlike yhwh , muslims don’t like to become willingly SELF abuse themselves.
they don’t have fetish for getting PUNISHED through someone else.
”
Why does allah want you to commit human sacrifice to appease him?”
why are you confusing “father in heaven” who NEEDS DEFLOWERING of “righteous virgin” through VIOLENT MEANS so that he can COOL of with ALLAH and HIM being appeased ?
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“Try to use your brain. I’ll do this slowly so that your two brain cells can follow along. For christians, God himself in his infinite love for his creation has taken the payment of our sins upon himself.”
POLYTHEIST!
Briefly, one knows that he has two different objects or ideas by the things that differentiate the one from the other. If you write of a being that has quality x, and, later, you write of a being that does not have quality x, even if the beings were never named, it is clear that two different beings are written about. They cannot be one.
When writing of the Christian Father and Son, you write that the former cannot be seen and the second can. Essentially, you have stated that you have two different beings with either two different qualities or two different abilities. These are two different gods.
This can be seen, too, from the way in which they relate to humanity. According to you, Jesus must mediate between the other Christian god and humanity. If this is due to the holiness of that other god, as I believe you would say that it is, then you say that Jesus does not have the same holiness as that god, the Christian Father. Jesus is more a demigod than a god. But, in any case, you have two beings having two different relationships with humanity. One of those beings facilitates a relationship between humanity and the other being. That you can see these things shows that this is not one god. Any attempt to call them one is nothing short of a lie.
/////////////
lol bro Qb , they actually imagine “one god” as consisting of different beings who have their own SEPARATE roles .
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The key word here is “miscarriage”…good point on that one…
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hey shaad, how you doing ? watched any rungila films ?
shaad , here is an article for you
https://www.facebook.com/download/894779550699709/Atonement%20as%20Compensation%20or%20Reciprocity.pdf?hash=AcqKBXmVOEQ1popJ
lol
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“He allows the Christian no accountability and thus His justice according to your beliefs is compromised because a person was wronged and He allowed it.”
If you were honest you would know that Jesus takes on all sin. But I’m glad you bring up justice because this “catch” you made is exactly the premise you tried to defend earlier. You see, when Allah just “forgets” or forgives a Muslims sins or cancels them out to replace them with good deeds (which you asserted above), then the justice of Allah is compromised. I even asked you if a Muslim cheater who prays is for for jannah. You said yes. But what of his adultery? His wife? His children? The other partners family? They were severely wronged and in your theology such is never made right.
Our concept is radically different. Sin is actually dealt with but true forgiveness granted.
Your “catch” just falsified Islam buddy
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Speaking of strawman arguments! LOL!!
As for the adulterer, there are different ways he can be forgiven. One is to accept the earthly punishment (stoning to death), which will absolve him of the sin. The other is to seek the forgiveness of his wife and family (which means that he would not confess his sin before a judge). Since by his adultery, he wronged another person, the only other way to be forgiven (besides capital punishment) by Allah (swt) is to seek the forgiveness of the person he wronged. He can pray all he wants, but if he does not seek forgiveness from his wife, then he cannot be forgiven and will be punished in the afterlife.
Thank you again for exposing your ignorance. You’re doing a great job!
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you see , this is the beauty of islam. ALLAH WILL NOT RIGHT THE WRONG WITHOUT THE WRONG DOER AND THE WRONG DOER HAVING TO TAKE STEP TO RE-CONCILIATE, NO BODY ELSE IS BROUGHT IN AS GO BETWEEN. ! the christian on the other hand, in his mind, ALREADY knows that he is born with DAMAGED nature and that his CRIMES were ALL transferred . ALL TRANSFERRED . what menstrual rag apology can TheY give when krist TOOK away their GUILT? why did krist die? BECAUSE kristians abilities are all MENSTRUAL rags. FILTHY. DAMAGED.
AS jelly said “imperfect”
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So let’s say he chooses to commit suicide by stoning and as you say is absolved from his sin.
What about the offended?
Gotcha!! I guess poor Allah’s justice gets compromised by his own choice of punishment 😂😂
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LOL!! What a moron! Suicide is a sin in Islam.
As I said, if he seeks forgiveness from the offended, rather than going to a judge and admitting his sin, he can be absolved that way as well. The parties involved can work out an agreement on how he can be forgiven. This is the beauty of Islam. On the other hand, if we let your religion decide how ‘justice” is served, so long as SOMEONE pays for the sin, then “justice” is done. I guess Yahweh’s justice gets compromised by his own choice of punishment. What else can you expect from an aged Canaanite deity? It must be the Alzhemier’s kicking in! 😂😂
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q and bs
Classic. You are playing god, which means you are committing shirk.
Stoning people to death ABSOLVES them? Only god absolves, fool. Why does allah need humans t do his job? And which humans can absolve sinners of their sins? LOL!!
this islam nonsense just gets more and more bizarre the more you guys try to defend it.
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Bwhahahaha, here we go again! Watch Coco the monkey dance!
The punishment for adultery was instituted by God, fool. Therefore, if a person is punished that way, he is absolved of his sin. Stop making up your own rules, idiot.
Sin can be absolved in different ways. It depends on the sin. The true God wants true justice, not the fake one your religion tries to push. Tell me Coco. How is it “justice” when anyone can be punished for the sins of humanity? As long as SOMEONE is punished, your god is sated. How is that justice?
This crosstianity gets stupider and stupider the more you clowns try to defend it.
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”
Stoning people to death ABSOLVES them? Only god absolves, fool. Why does allah need humans t do his job? And which humans can absolve sinners of their sins? LOL!”
the bum has spoken .
and example
EXAMPLE :
quote :For the sake of precision, it may be useful here to adopt, with some slight modification, the classic philosophical distinction between primary and secondary causes: God, as the primary cause of blessing and wonder, ‘blesses’ and ‘performs won-drous deeds’ in the ‘primary sense’ of that word, whereas human beings ‘bless’ and ‘perform wondrous deeds’ in the ‘secondary sense’, that is, as mediators or agents who are fully dependent on God for their performance of this activity. At the same time, it must be noted these two ‘senses’ are not differentiated on the philological level
////
now let me ask, can human ABSOLVE in the ‘SECONDARY SENSE ‘ ?
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“Classic. You are playing god, which means you are committing shirk.”
that would imply that a pagan meat god walking on the earth would be COMMITTING shirk when he said “your sins are forgiven”
you have invisible X in heaven who is the only authority on forgiving sins, then y which is a BODY does what only X is allowed to do , this causes the jews to say , “you are COMMITTING shirk ”
so you have to admit that jesus was a MUSHRIK
you have INVISIBLE X and visible Y and the two would clearly not have been seen as “one being ” BS
so do you agree with the jewish charge that jesus was a MUSHRIK ?
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q and bs
Show me the texts in the OT and the quran that teach this. Only god can forgive sins, you are committing shirk and human sacrifice by murdering people to absolve sin and appease your god.
This is proof that allah is a false god – probably satan.
All sin regardless of its severity makes humans unfit to god before God’s purity. Allah is obviously an impure god.
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“Show me the texts in the OT and the quran that teach this. Only god can forgive sins, you are committing shirk and human sacrifice by murdering people to absolve sin and appease your god”
LOL!! First of all, I don’t have to prove anything about Islam to a pagan like you! Know your place, Coco!
Having said that, here are some verses from the Quran that show that punishments are prescribed by Allah (swt):
“The unmarried woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse, lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah…” (24:2)
“As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” (5:38-39)
“This is proof that allah is a false god – probably satan.”
LOL!! Why, because you say so? Your god is an old man sitting on a throne! That is an IDOL, borrowed from Canaanite paganism! You follow Satan, you moron!
Also, since your god is only sated if someone/anyone pays for the sin, even if it is an innocent person, then your god is false because he is not just. It is not justice to punish an innocent person for the sins of someone else.
“All sin regardless of its severity makes humans unfit to god before God’s purity. Allah is obviously an impure god.”
Yahweh is obviously a confused deity. Murder is a more serious sin than flipping someone off. If your god considers them to be the same, then he is obviously not god but a confused and senile old man. Sorry! 😉
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“All sin regardless of its severity makes humans unfit to god before God’s purity. Allah is obviously an impure god.”
so when all sh*t was poured into your god, did he become impure too ? if yes, why wasn’t he BURNING in hell for BECOMING cursed ? fathers “fake justice” right? he PUMPS jesus , rapes him with punishment and ALL sins and then takes him through washing ritual. this is FILTH! this is your disgusting god double standards .
jesus BECAME WORSE sinner then me…but “holy” god decides…. oh what the hell ….even though he should be BURNING in the depths of hell …..i’ll SAVE him from ETERNAL damnation
your fathers “justice” is FAKE justice. it is exactly what a DON or criminal can do. because he is “yhwhs son” he GETS AWAY with DOING the time in hell, he gets a QUICK weekend punishment ….
FAKE “justice ”
and you are UNFIT before your god….but because you “believe” you god NOW tolerates you EVEN THOUGH u are GUARANTEED to sin ….hahahahahaahah
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“Show me the texts in the OT ….”
lol, only the ot? i thought matthew was JEWISH ?
8 When the crowds saw it, they were filled with awe, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to human beings.
what DISGUSTING SHIRK!
matthew the jew thinks OTHER human beings ALSO had authority to FORGIVE sins…..SHIRK !
the reason is because in matthews SHIRKY time…jews were DOING lot of shirk and thinking god gives MERE mortals POWER to forgive sins…i say even in the “PRIMARY” SENSE
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AND WE KNOW MATTHEW IS THINKING THIS BECAUSE HIS SOURCE COMPLETELY LEAVES OUT THE REACTION OF THE CROWDS….FOR MATTHEW TO BRING IN THE CROWD IMPLIES HE IS EITHER DOING DAMAGE CONTROL(for the charge of “this man blaspheemes” ) / HE WANTS HIS READERS TO THINK THAT THE REACTION WAS NOT ONE OF “YOU DIRTY SHIRKY PAGAN….”(damage control)
in matthews day doing this stuff and taking what only belonged to yhwh was completely fine. yhwh could give u his righ, his power, his DECISION making, his judgement….
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q and bs
No wonder your dawah is ineffective. LOL!! You sad little man.
Also, you are a moron. I asked you for evidence that committing human sacrifice in the name of allah absolves people of sin and sends them to heaven. You haven’t done that.
You moron. God takes the payment for sin onto himself and God can do whatever he wants. Your objection is silly.
More reading comprehension fail. Please show me where I said murder is the same as flipping someone off? Read slowly…..try really, really hard…go on, you can do it……
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“No wonder your dawah is ineffective. LOL!! You sad little man.
Also, you are a moron. I asked you for evidence that committing human sacrifice in the name of allah absolves people of sin and sends them to heaven. You haven’t done that.”
Bwhahahaha, look at the monkey dance! Go monkey, go!
Idiot, we were talking about the forgiveness of particular sins. You asked for proof that Islam teaches that certain punishments can absolves sins on Allah’s authority. Now you are moving the goal post and claiming that you asked a different question! No wonder your evangelization is ineffective. LOL!! You sad little monkey. Christianity is dying because of your deceit!
“You moron. God takes the payment for sin onto himself and God can do whatever he wants. Your objection is silly.”
You simian moron. Your god is only sated by seeing blood being spilled, even his own. The point is that this is not justice. Justice is not saying that “as long as someone pays with blood, everything is hunky-dory”.
If your argument is that “God can do whatever He wants”, then your objection to what the Almighty Allah swt) does is silly. Thank you for again showing your Christian hypocrisy!
“More reading comprehension fail. Please show me where I said murder is the same as flipping someone off? Read slowly…..try really, really hard…go on, you can do it……”
LOL!! Here is what you said you silly monkey:
“All sin regardless of its severity makes humans unfit to god before God’s purity. Allah is obviously an impure god.”
Read slowly…try really, really hard…go on, you can do it Coco. There’s a good simian. You know you are almost like us humans. Such an adorable little primate.
If “all sin REGARDLESS OF ITS SEVERITY” makes humans unfit, then someone who merely flipped another person off is the same as a murderer in your god’s eyes. Ergo, your god is a confused and senile old man with no sense of justice or fairness. Don’t try to walk back on what you said. I don’t think you monkeys are very good at bipedalism any way! 🙂
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“You simian moron. Your god is only sated by seeing blood being spilled, even his own. The point is that this is not justice. Justice is not saying that “as long as someone pays with blood, everything is hunky-dory”.
the dirty crosstian pagans are living in world of contradictions .their brains have contradictory thoughts and they put these contradictory thoughts together .
when a crosstian watches porn /lusts he will tell himself that he is crap with legs.
this is why i have said again and again that their belief or their attempt to do repentance is just bs, they are born damaged, polluted and corrupt .
james white said “even my repentance is NOT GOOD ENOUGH…”
when joel sins does he offer his menstrual guilt to yhwh?
throwing lust, porn, insincere repetance on body of sinful jesus is ABSOLUTELY USELESS. it is just SHIFTING the GUILT unto SOMEBODY ELSE !
why don’t they just kill a chicken , sprinkle its blood and do “repentance” ?
jesus’ human sacrifice is not cure for problem of sin, it causes problems like joel.
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q and bs
Pathetic. Yes that is exactly what I asked for and you gave no evidence, idiot.
What does it take to get something through your thick skull? Where does christian theology that “someone” or “anyone” should bear the burden of punishment for sin? Surely you can’t be that dense?
Exactly, you imbecile. Are you tying to tell me that even the slightest smidgen of sin can exist in the presence of your false god? Seriosuly? Allah can exist in eternity with even the smallest sins ignored? He is not a pure god, therefore he is not pure, therefore he is not the true god.
More evidence that your religion is false. Even the slightest trace of sin and its bearer cannot possibly exist in the presence of the true god’s pristine nature. Your god can abide in the presence of impurity no matter how small. He cannot be the true god, therefore. It isn’t a question of minor and major sin being equivalent, it is a matter of yahweh’ perfect pristineness. Your micro brain just can’t understand this concept of a pure god. LOL!!
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“Pathetic. Yes that is exactly what I asked for and you gave no evidence, idiot.”
Pathetic. No, that is not what you asked for, idiot. You are a loser who panics and changes gears when he is exposed. I have shown that Allah (swt) has prescribed certain punishments for certain sins, which will serve to expiate for those sins.
“What does it take to get something through your thick skull? Where does christian theology that “someone” or “anyone” should bear the burden of punishment for sin? Surely you can’t be that dense?”
Bwhahahaha!
You idiots argue that your mangod died for everyone’s sins. Your mangod was not the sinner, was he? So, in order for mankind to be forgiven their sins, your god required that his blood be shed as expiation. The sinners did not expiate at all. Get it, loser? Surely you can’t be that dense?
“Exactly, you imbecile. Are you tying to tell me that even the slightest smidgen of sin can exist in the presence of your false god? Seriosuly? Allah can exist in eternity with even the smallest sins ignored? He is not a pure god, therefore he is not pure, therefore he is not the true god.”
HAHAHAHA! Do you think “sin” is some sort of physical entity? Is your religion really this stupid and silly?
Allah (swt) is not like your false, weak pagan god who needs to see blood to be sated. Allah (swt) is not harmed by sin either. Nor does He need to see blood spilled for sins to be forgiven.
Even if your god feels that his blood can “wash” sin away, as if it is some sort of physical filth, the fact remains that he still allows sinners like you to be in his presence. No matter what he does, you will always remain a sinner. Your god is very confused!
“More evidence that your religion is false. Even the slightest trace of sin and its bearer cannot possibly exist in the presence of the true god’s pristine nature. Your god can abide in the presence of impurity no matter how small. He cannot be the true god, therefore. It isn’t a question of minor and major sin being equivalent, it is a matter of yahweh’ perfect pristineness. Your micro brain just can’t understand this concept of a pure god. LOL!!”
LOL!! So you have proven that your god is so stupid and confused that he considers a murderer to be no different than a person who never took a life and committed minor sins in his life! WOW!! Yahweh is a petty and confused deity! He is not just and fair, so he cannot be the true God.
Allah (swt), on the other hand, recognizes that every person makes mistakes. He is a forgiving God, but He also differentiates between sins. A murderer does not get the same leniency than a charitable person, nor does an adult get the same leniency as a child. Your god, on the other hand, thinks that even a child is a sinner. That is enough proof that your god is a false god and is a figment of your imagination. LOL!!
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“Exactly, you imbecile. Are you tying to tell me that even the slightest smidgen of sin can exist in the presence of your false god? Seriosuly? ”
explain monkey, why sin can’t EXIST in the presence of “holy” god lol
sin gives your god diarrhoea ? is it a competitor with your pagan false god?
”
Allah can exist in eternity with even the smallest sins ignored? He is not a pure god, therefore he is not pure, therefore he is not the true god.”
lol, god NEED to PUNISH himself before he “ignore” sin ? and “purity” is DEPENDANT on him PUNISHING himself ? what kind of RETARDED thinking is this. i know sin SLAPPED your god around on the cross…..satan the sinner which is impure existed before the PURE ONE…..your pagan god probably gets diarrhoea and the only choice is for him to get punished by sinful actions .
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“sin gives your god diarrhoea ? ”
LOL!!! Although, I think Coco’s god most likely has constipation. He is an old man.
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” Even the slightest trace of sin and its bearer cannot possibly exist in the presence of the true god’s pristine nature.”
what ? where you got this from ? since sin nature and divine nature do not mix, where you getting this TRASH from ?
“Your god can abide in the presence of impurity no matter how small. ”
there he goes conflating his pagan gods pagan incarnation into DIFFERENT places with the belief of what muslims believe.
does yhwh divine nature mix with impurity while he was walking the earth?
“He cannot be the true god, therefore. It isn’t a question of minor and major sin being equivalent, it is a matter of yahweh’ perfect pristineness. Your micro brain just can’t understand this concept of a pure god. LOL!!”
your god is pure like virgin and the moment he see sin it deflower him ? not a powerful god , is it ?
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“LOL!! So you have proven that your god is so stupid and confused that he considers a murderer to be no different than a person who never took a life and committed minor sins in his life! WOW!! Yahweh is a petty and confused deity! He is not just and fair, so he cannot be the true God.”
thats why they tell the jews that ALL their PAST repentance was no good and that person who repents and person who doesn’t repent are all treated the SAME because of their sins, this means that their is no justice, yhwh is treated repenter as one who does not repent because of sins. ….this is INJUSTICE . there is no mercy here.
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“Our concept is radically different. Sin is actually dealt with but true forgiveness granted.”
okay…. so when a crosstian watches porn and jesus says “put thy sin on my cursed body son….” how did that undo the injustice against your wife ? you did adultery with the eyes and you did adultery with the heart and you poured on jesus your filthy crime. you still in your dirty FILTHY polluted and CORRUPTED STATE! you STILL sin EVERY day. today, tomorrow, AND THE NEXT day. sin was TRANSFERRED and you REMAIN IN YOUR CORRUPTED being.
if you do a wrong , jesus PUNISHING himself does not UNDO the wrong. so where does the wrong go? does the father wipe it from his memory? does jesus make the father forget ? the son doesn’t know the hour, does the son cause the father to not know crosstian sins
DEFINE forgiveness, crosstian
watch the crosstian trip on this
DEFINE FORGIVENESS
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Exactly. Cerbie’s religion thinks that “justice” is done as long as SOMEONE/ANYONE suffers for the sin. It doesn’t have to be the sinner himself. As long as someone pays the price, that is “justice”. Of course, reasonable people see how nonsensical this concept is. But dishonest crosstians like Cerbie and Coco will try to put the best possible spin on it.
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“He cannot be the true god, therefore. It isn’t a question of minor and major sin being equivalent, it is a matter of yahweh’ perfect pristineness”
i don’t think crosstians really give a damn about “pristineness” or “maximally perfect” since they SOIL/SPOIL/CORRUPT/POLLUTE god when they have him BEING TEMPTED!
incarnation SOILS the CONSCIOUSNESS of your god because RIGHT now , he still RECALL ALL THOSE temptations of SEXUAL AND PORNOGRAPHICALL THOUGHTS he was having while being TEMPTED!
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“Saying “good works are a demonstration of saving faith” is just your pathetic attempt to prevent yourself from admitting that you have been exposed.“
Joel is right. Are you intellectually dishonest or is Islam making you this way?
You do know that works as a demonstration of faith is basic Christian doctrine? Taught by the fathers , reformers etc? I certainly didn’t make it up. I’ve cited several fathers who say precisely the same thing.
Clearly you are upset that your logic doesn’t work and that your attempts to use the fathers for muhammadanism has backfired.
So, which is it for you?
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hey paulus, please do comment on this
Click to access BiblenotFriendofImmgirants.pdf
man, jesus was one racist like his dad from ot
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Hahahaha, awww Cerbie and Coco make such an adorable team!
As I said, good deeds as a demonstration of faith is exactly what brother Stew said regarding Islam. Good deeds are a consequence of faith, but it is faith that saves. If good deeds saved, then even unbelievers would go to heaven. This is why I said that Islam and Christianity appear to be similar in this regard, but the two clowns Cerbie and Coco think that they are different. Sorry to burst your bubble, Cerbie. But in this regard, our two religions are very similar. In Christianity, salvation is not a “gift” as you said. If a believer has faith, yet no deeds, then his faith is useless. Ergo, salvation cannot possible be called a “gift”. A gift is freely given, not earned.
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“As I said, good deeds as a demonstration of faith is exactly what brother Stew said regarding Islam.”
quote :
Exactly. Good deeds in Islam function as a means to “show” piety to others – precisely what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God incarnate, Son Of God and Second person of the Trinity condemned.
Christians perform good deeds as a by-product of our gratitude for God’s mercy, and as an expression of our love of the true god Yahweh. Our good deed reminds of God’s forgiveness and expresses our love for him
//////////////
1. your god didn’t forgive you, he transferred your crimes and SELF abused himself….so the only thing you can be REMINDED of is why god had no choice but to SELF ABUSE himself . forgiveness does not exist in your religion .
he cannot forgive
he can only give someone a BLOODY nose to appease himself .
2. your BS does not answer any problem . you are STILL being SEEN by men in all the “good” BS you think you are doing.
3. the point of the cross is tell christians they are SINFUL and damaged and god DIED for all sins, including SHOWING OFF and since you are BORN with damaged nature and cannot obey your gods law “perfectly” then you either try to IMPROVE yourself (lol crosstian needs to become better at doing something ) or you tell yourself that you are BORN damaged and since yhwh already self abused himself , and showing off is already paid for , then …….
4. what makes a crosstian think that they cannot be BOASTING in giving gratitude in the form of SHOWING off DEEDs ?
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q and bs
Exactly. Good deeds in Islam function as a means to “show” piety to others – precisely what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God incarnate, Son Of God and Second person of the Trinity condemned.
Christians perform good deeds as a by-product of our gratitude for God’s mercy, and as an expression of our love of the true god Yahweh. Our good deed reminds of God’s forgiveness and expresses our love for him.
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“And you JUST ADMITTED that good deeds are a NECESSITY for salvation“
So, which one? Intellectually dishonest by nature or Islam making you this way?
(Btw- I thought Islam wasn’t works based? Why have you contradicted yourself now?)
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Bwhahaha, trying to deflect?
I see you are up to your old tricks. Why don’t you answer my question? Don’t throw a hissy-fit like you did with Stew (“you don’t listen, wa, wa, wa”). Question: Can a Christian be saved by believing in Jesus (faith), but not do good deeds (works)?
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A lack of deeds demonstrates no faith. Since faith alone saves such a person wouldn’t be a Christians, as Jesus makes clear in the gospels.
Next time try not to assume your answer into the question.
Now gotta run britney to pay my taxes for all those welfare dependent Muslims…
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LOL, look at Cerbie run!
As I said, this is similar to Islam. You are just too full of bigotry to admit it. Faith and good deeds go hand in hand. One demonstrates the other. But faith saves, not deeds. Thank you!
Oh and as for the Australian Muslims, think back a few week when I humiliated you on this matter. Australian Muslims are actually well educated for the most part. But because of the endemic racism and discrimination in your country, many are not able to find jobs even though they are qualified. That speaks volumes about your country, supposedly the “greatest” country in the world as you claimed…
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“A lack of deeds demonstrates no faith. Since faith alone saves such a person wouldn’t be a Christians, as Jesus makes clear in the gospels.”
i thought “faith” was that “golden gifted” nugget ? , now your faith NEEDS APPEARANCE to be seen by others . you said APPEARANCE OF WORKS are not ADDITION or COMBINATION .
are you “fully faith” and “fully deed” and the two don’t mix? explain your retardedness.
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When will Cerbie admit he has been refuted? The reality is that salvation cannot logically be a “gift” if it needs good works to “demonstrate” it.
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“Now gotta run britney to pay my taxes for all those welfare dependent Muslims…”
thats how he “demonstrates ” his faith . why would u single out muslims when white australians are welfare dependant all over australia? did you commit a sin crosstian ?
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He is a racist just like his savior. LOL!!
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kristianity a religion for retards :
Don’t Christians ever wonder why killing god’s son (whom they believe to have been “god the son,” the second person of the “Trinity”) was not the greatest sin humans could ever commit? Humans killed god?! Isn’t that the greatest sin anyone could possibly dream of ever committing? How could the humans who committed such a deed ever be forgiven except maybe by killing another divine savior to “atone” for killing the first one? And so on and so forth? At some point the cycle of “atonement” has to be broken by direct forgiveness. At some point direct forgiveness, not based on a bloody sacrifice, has to intervene to break the endless loop. Maybe that’s why Jesus himself did not believe that God’s forgiveness depended on a bloody sacrifice
, but instead taught everyone to pray “in this way…Our Father…Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.” Simple. Direct forgiveness.
Has any theologian ever been able to demonstrate how “atonement” works, how physical pain unto death of an animal or person makes up for that time I talked back to my mother, or desired my neighbor’s wife or car?
Sounds exactly like sympathetic magic. Or as comedian Doug Stanhope says, “‘Jesus died for your sins.’ How does one affect the other? I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your mortgage. I don’t get it.”
Or as my friend Tony Atkinson once asked, “How do ‘sins’ become something substantial in and of themselves? There are memories of being hurt, but ‘sins’ as substantial entities one can collect together and then place inside a body or soul? How do ‘sins’ become collected and where do they exist apart from being past acts? Are ‘sins’ the ‘bad’ memories of God? Do such memories ‘soil’ God’s mind? And he has to dispose of them? Is killing his own son a form of forgetfulness, a means of dissolving such memories? None of this makes sense.”
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the RETARDED “believers” even change definition of forgiveness
QUOTE :
“Forgiveness,” Keller says, “means refusing to make [someone] pay for what they did,” and yet “to refrain from lashing out at someone when you want to do so with all your being is agony” (p. 188). He does not cite any psychological science to back any of this. But even in a colloquial sense his statement is misinformed. Forgiveness by definition means letting go. It’s the opposite of agony. It’s the lifting of the weight of agony. How you know you have forgiven someone, is by the very fact that you no longer agonize over the wrong they did. It no longer causes you suffering.
So Keller doesn’t know what he is talking about. And what he is recommending, is psychologically unhealthy.
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@ Paulus
1. That is not suicide they are voluntarily wishing to be punished now because they fear the Next life’s more.
2. Let’s talk about sin. Sin does not affect God, He may not like it but His praise and glory would not decrease if everyone on Earth decided not to believe in Him. We can break sin down into the following categories:
1. Wronging yourself: This is most sins, fornicating, drinking, gambling, taking interest loans from someone etc. These, God forgives no problem if He wants to because we ‘re weak and He knows the individual’s situation.
2. Wronging others: Lying, stealing, backbiting, slandering, killing etc. These generally require the person to forgive the opposing party and will be what God judges people on if not resolved. If the person forgives then God absolves and the person who forgives gets an even larger reward.
3. Wronging God: This is things like worshipping idols or Jesus etc. Also in this category is praying to saints and graves etc. This is what God said He will never forgive if a person dies on this (of course if they stop and repent before death it becomes like 1 where they wronged themselves)
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Of course its suicide. If I choose to be killed by attacking a police officer, we call that suicide by cop.
Anyway, that’s irrelevant/ my point was that the “wronged party” is still wronged by such a punishment. So your “catch” only falsifies Islam my friend.
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Nah not really.. even in this case, God could forgive the person and simply add good deeds to the offended party for their trouble.
Next, it’s not suicide. They are submitting to God’s law which is actually a commendable act and extreme demonstration of faith.
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Exactly. Either way, the offended party gets compensated for the wrong that was done, and the perpetrator also achieves forgiveness.
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LOL! Christian logic strikes yet again!
Attacking a police officer because you want to die is not even remotely the same as accepting that you did wrong by committing adultery and wanting to be absolved of the sin by choosing to have the appropriate punishment applied in this world. The former is simply a crime (because you are attempting to hurt the officer). The latter is an act of expiation.
Your “point” is ridiculous because the wronged party can get closure from the fact that the adulterer was punished for his act. In contrast, your religion claims that the adulterer can be forgiven simply by accepting Jesus (who was also sinful) as his savior and that his adulterous act would be expiated by Jesus’ death. In other words, as long as SOMEONE got punished, your god is sated. That is the epitome of INJUSTICE. So your religion is falsified my canine friend.
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so if I get wronged by other people, God gives me extra bonus points for my trouble? Is this is game show or what? 😂😂😂😂
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What’s the difference? The wronged party gets compensated doesn’t it? It’s better than your god’s “somebody’s gotta pay” mantra! 😂😂😂😂
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“The reality is that salvation cannot logically be a “gift” if it needs good works to “demonstrate” it.“
And now you’ve just shown how illogical you are. If I give you a new car as a gift, do you need to drive it for it qualify as a gift?
As I’ve said numerous times. Our deeds are born of grace and thankfulness for slavation. Your deeds are done to balance the scales, ie works based salvation. You need to appease your Allah with right actions.
Radically different. I can’t keep up any more. One day Islam is all about faith alone. Next day you try to make Christianity works based like Islam.
You guys are more confused than 6 year old Aisha being forced to marry a man the age of her grandfather
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What?! Christian logic strikes again!
If you give me a car without me having done anything to deserve it, whether I drive it or not, it is still a free gift. It didn’t cost me anything. On the other hand, for you to say that salvation is a “gift” and yet I still have to do good deeds to “demonstrate” my faith, then it is not a gift at all. I am doing something in return to truly receive the gift. It would be like if you offered me a car “free of charge”, but then in the fine print, it says that I have to do certain things to compensate you for the car. Or it could be like if the car you “gifted” to me was a piece of crap that would hardly run. Either way, the “free” nature of the “gift” is compromised. It is not a “gift” at all if there is some further action needed on my part.
As brother Stew said, good deeds in Islam are the consequence of faith. You cannot have faith without having good deeds. This is the same concept in Christianity. Ergo, your claim of a free “gift” of salvation is simply not true. You can try to use your mental gymnastics all you want, but logically, a “gift” does not require any action on the part of the recipient. If salvation was truly a “gift”, then everyone would be saved regardless of their faith or their works.
You are more confused than the little Midianite girls being forced to become slaves of the men who killed their families.
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“As I’ve said numerous times. Our deeds are born of grace and thankfulness for slavation. Your deeds are done to balance the scales, ie works based salvation. You need to appease your Allah with right actions.”
verb (used with object), ap·peased, ap·peas·ing.
to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe:
to appease an angry king.
thats the father in trinity isn’t it? he needs to be appeased by the “works” of jesus in a HUMAN body and the SHEDDING of jesus /shedding of his flesh/romans sacrificial ACT/jesus SELF abusing act in body , cool of the father in heaven . either that or created blood has soothing effect on yhwh like burnt offerings.
ALL created stuff.
“balance the scales…”
Sahih International: Then We will surely relate [their deeds] to them with knowledge, and We were not [at all] absent.
NOTICE THE WORDS “AND WE WERE NOT ABSENT ?
Allah says HE knows because he wasn’t ABSENT
notice this ?
Sahih International: And the weighing [of deeds] that Day will be the truth. So those whose scales are heavy – it is they who will be the successful.
notice the words “the TRUTH” ? NOW what does “truth ” mean ? ummm maybe it has something to do with FAITH , SINCERITY….INTENTION ?
Sahih International: And those whose scales are light – they are the ones who will lose themselves for what injustice they were doing toward Our verses.
notice the words “INJUSTICE” “LOSE THEMSELVES”
what were they doing with Gods SIGNS AND revelations ?
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QUOTE :
“As I’ve said numerous times. Our deeds are born of grace and thankfulness for slavation.
there is nothing, no”thankfulness” BS you can do….you are DAMAGED and sinner in your gods eyes . your heart is corrupt like jesus’ . “why do you call me good?” he is right, he needed BAPTISM
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4297&sid=1cbf745225d556c93c48323a047ccea2
because his heart was filled with :
or out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
“it is not right/fair to take the childrens bread and cast it to the DOGS”
“why do you call me good” ? you have early proof jesus DENIED being god.
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You have this weird obsession with saying the gifting of faith “needs” something. That’s simply not true not logical. When you give your child a gift, do they “need” to say thank you? If they don’t, is it less of a gift? Or is saying thank you a natural consequence of receiving?
The gift itself doesn’t suddenly become a “deed” because they said thank you. Nor does it cease to be a gift if thankfulness is not acknowledged.
Similarly a Christians good deeds are the outworkings of the gift of salvation. Islam is simply works based self righteous attainment. Which allows boasting, which diminishes God, which falsifies Islam as true
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LOL, I’m not the one saying that faith is a “gift”, but that it must be “demonstrated” by good deeds. You are! And what is a “gift”?
gift
ɡift/
noun
noun: gift; plural noun: gifts
1.
a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.
DING! DING! DING! For your salvation to qualify as a “gift”, it must be given willingly by God WITHOUT PAYMENT. In other words, for salvation to be truly a “gift”, you should go to heaven without having to “demonstrate” anything. But alas, you cannot. Ergo, salvation is not a “gift”. You lied. Case closed. Your religion requires both faith and good deeds for salvation. Here is a little schematic to help you process this:
Faith (1) + Good deeds (0) ≠ Salvation (2)
Faith (0) + Good deeds (1) ≠ Salvation (2)
Faith (1) + Good deeds (1) = Salvation (2)
Get it? I know you trinitarians have trouble with arithmetic, but this is the simplest way to illustrate your religion’s teaching on salvation.
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Or you can imagine this scenario:
Cerbie’s God – I give you the gift of salvation if you believe in me.
Cerbie – OK, great! I believe in you wholeheartedly! So, can I go to heaven now, Lord?
Cerbie’s God – Well no, not yet.
Cerbie – …Why not?
Cerbie’s God – Well, you have to do demonstrate your faith. Do some good deeds.
Cerbie – But I thought you said salvation was a gift?
Cerbie’s God – It is.
Cerbie – So then I should just be able to go to heaven without having to do anything.
Cerbie’s God – …
Cerbie – …
(Lengthy awkward pause)
Cerbie’s God – OK, scratch that “gift” thing. You can get into heaven by having faith and then demonstrating it by good deeds.
Cerbie – …What a jip!
Cerbie’s God – (shrugs shoulders)…
The End…
😂😂😂😂
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”
That’s simply not true not logical. When you give your child a gift, do they “need” to say thank you?
If they don’t, is it less of a gift?”
i receive an iphone. i show no appreciation of the one who gave the iphone.
has the iphone become less of a gift? by my lack of appreciation have i devalued the iphone ? i didn’t deserve the iphone, by my lack of appreciation have i de valued the gift and as a result has gift become LESS of a gift in my MIND ? yes.
“Or is saying thank you a natural consequence of receiving?”
if one does not deserve the gift and receives the gift, then there is a NEED or natural need to show appreciation .
“i don’t deserve that iphone…i must do….” there is natural need to do something and that is show appreciation.
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“For your salvation to qualify as a “gift”, it must be given willingly by God WITHOUT PAYMENT.“‘
I agree
“In other words, for salvation to be truly a “gift”, you should go to heaven without having to “demonstrate” anything“
Now you defined payment as “demonstrate”. On what basis? See how illogical and devious you are.
When you child says thank you, and demonstrates their appreciation, do you view that as a “payment”? I can just imagine
Britney- “here you go child”
Child- “thanks dad”
Britney- “HOW DARE YOU! This is a gift not a payment 😂😂😂
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LOL!!! Cerbie just doesn’t get it! It’s your god who says that you must do good deeds to “demonstrate” your faith. So, blame your god for being self-contradictory by calling salvation a “gift” and yet still requiring good deeds as a way of saying “thanks”!
Cerbie’s God – Here you go, child.
Cerbie – Thanks Lord!
Cerbie’s God – Thanks? No, no, no. You must do good deeds.
Cerbie – But wasn’t this a gift?
Cerbie’s God – Yes, but it ain’t a free gift.
Cerbie – What a jip.
Cerbie’s God – (shrugs shoulders)…
The End…?
😂😂😂
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If your god said that salvation is a gift, then doing good deeds would not be required, it would merely be optional. You could thank God out of gratitude, but if you didn’t, he couldn’t hold you accountable. Get it Cerbie? There is a difference between requiring good deeds, which your god clearly does, and simply making it optional.
As for my child, yes, I would want her to learn to thank people. It is in a hadith! If you didn’t thank someone, it would be like not thanking Allah (swt). But if I merely taught her that thanking people was optional, then I would be in no position to tell her to definitely thank people when they give her something. Get it? Try to think Cerbie. Don’t keep deceiving yourself. Or keep deceiving yourself. Whatever floats your boat. 😂😂😂
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quote :
In other words, for salvation to be truly a “gift”, you should go to heaven without having to “demonstrate” anything. But alas, you cannot. Ergo, salvation is not a “gift”. You lied. Case closed.
////////////////
its not only “demonstration” akhi, they have to be CONCERNED about how sincere they are and how guilty they feel after they commit a crime . they also have improve on their repentance. and each time they do deeds in the flesh, they need to tell themselves god punishes misdeeds on earth and hell like he did in ot days. now from psychological perspective, christianity is completely work based religion. i mean think about it bro, this damaged crosstian believes that his “gift” have A CHECK LIST which need ticking…he will LIE , but in his mind he will agree with everything i have said . yes akhi, i know what you are thinking, no crosstian trusts in jesus’ guilt, suffering and sacrifice, they need to IMPROVE themselves lol
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QUOTE:
When you child says thank you, and demonstrates their appreciation, do you view that as a “payment”? I can just imagine
Britney- “here you go child”
Child- “thanks dad”
Britney- “HOW DARE YOU! This is a gift not a payment 😂😂😂
//////////////////////
EEEEDIOT!
yhwh : hey crosstians i will give you gift which will come with check list of do’s and don’t .
if you don’t obey them and do them , i will know that you have no faith…you will go to hell
your faith fruits will be seen in the actions, repentance and sincerity you have.
are you doing to be seen me men ? to be seen by me? or to make yourselves happy ?
crosstian : i BETTER say “thank you ” to this WORKS BASED “gift”
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Again you show your ignorance. A key text is “anything not done in faith is sin”.
Consider how that applies to the christian vs the Muslim.
By all means continue to mislead yourself. You only dig a deeper hole for yourself. But if your lucky, Britney or Stew might cheat with your wife and give you a few extra good deeds as “compensation” 😂😂
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Hey Cerbie, you married? Still waiting for an answer. 😉
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yhwh have faith (trust i am god and creator of everything….every time doubt come in your mind improve your faith ) show faith in deeds.
crosstian : so you are happy with faith, but whAT about sincere deeds, are you happy with them ?
yhwh, i am happy with faith, sincere action…. but they (actions) don’t give you heaven .
crosstian : but they are sincere .
yhwh : so ?
crosstian : i mean what can be said about deeds can be SAID about faith too
Almost anything one says about righteousness through the “deeds of the law” could just as easily be said about righteousness through faith
you can be BOASTING about your faith /gift like you boast about your works.
yhwh : so put sincerity in both faith and works
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let me further ram raid you .
you pagan dualist pagan theology will not help you you damaged in nature crosstian
you are not “fully faith” and “fully deeds”
BOTH ARE CLEARLY interconnected in some “spiritual sense”
let me pound you with this question
lets assume FAITH out weighs deeds, but god KNOWS the DEED is done SINCERELY , why , if he KNOWS the deed is done sincerely, he does not allow entry into heaven because of it ,
i know you ask this question of your god. the only answer you can give is that your deeds are MENSTRUAL rags , are you deeds MENSTRUAL RAGS ?
see what you will do ? you will MINUS YOUR SELF (FULLY DEEDS ) from your pagan “fully faith” BS self.
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” But if your lucky, Britney or Stew might cheat with your wife and give you a few extra good deeds as “compensation” 😂😂”
if i cheated with your daughter and mother combined , will my cheating action rape jesus on the cross?
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“Again you show your ignorance. A key text is “anything not done in faith is sin”.
christian retard, does yhwh fast? does he go to church and give charity or knock on peoples doors and ask, “do you need help” ? does he pray ? does he sin, repent and then try to become better person? answer is no, isn’t it. a crosstian has to do all of this LOL…..meaning if u dont you have CONSEQUENCE which awaits you HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
this is funny . crostians are worried about quality of work they give yhwh. is it sincere or not . yes, i know, jebus pouring your sin on him self way useless….in your mind u still got to tell yourself that you HAVE TO …..YOU MUST do yhwhs dos and donts.
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he been given a lemon bro, lol
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god doesn’t simply give people “gift” he gives GUIDANCE /INSTRUCTION manual on what to do and what not to do . so your faith NEEDS to DEMONSTRATE whats in gods instruction manual . if god says “thank me” then one has to do what?
if the gift came with guidance on how to use it and the guidance had steps on how to thank the real owner of the gift (THE GIFT WILL GO BACK TO THE OWNER ), then….
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Several variations you could get more deeds or they take your sin depending on the situation. But it actually makes sense because that’s what we do now. For example, if I rear end someone and injure them I pay them damages for compensation. The people received compensation which is what is important, the case was settled and justice was established. At this point, I don’t think your in a position to comment because you don’t even have anything to compensate the wronged party in your case.
The only options I could think of is
Case #849894953542556654 Eric vs. Paulus.
Option 1: God: Paulus you were right in your business arrangement he did steal your money. You: Okay… now what? God: Justice… You: So what am I supposed to do: God: Are you still here?
Option 2: God: “Eric its been proven you wronged Paulus. Don’t need to look at the rest of your life in Hell ya go.” Eric: But wait I… God: Too bad.
Which do you prefer? The deeds are a manifestation of faith and are used by God to establish justice.
And I would like to add again because you complained that people who have faith go to Hell for a little bit:
1. They wronged others and God still out of mercy let them out because they believed.
2. The Devil has faith and will be punished.
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Your ramblings are becoming increasing confusing. What are you even trying to say?
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@ Paulus
You’re laughing but you’d be willing to sell your own mother that Day for just one. But anyways my apologies I thought I was clear.
To begin because I think confusion has officially set in after reading everyone’s response, let’s reorganize where Islam and Christianity agree:
1. You only go to heaven because of faith (check)
2. Deeds are a manifestation that faith (check)
Where the difference is happening (hence the whole argument in this comment section) is when a person has faith (even if it’s only a mustard seed) but does evil. From what my understanding looking at the responses (again I don’t know if this is your position this is what I’m interpreting) Christianity says this never happens, while Islam says this can happen. An example, of a person believing in God but does evil, is the Devil. The deeds being weighed are for this type of incident.
The person is punished because of the evil they caused but God still saves them in the end as well because of their faith. Christians are saying well if he was punished then his belief didn’t matter. But Islam is saying the punishment is justice or else he is able to try and use faith as a shield but God still saved him because of his faith.
Finally, Paulus, I said Christianity has an incomplete sense of justice because Jesus’s(as) intercession can’t account for Christians who do evil to others in this life without compromising justice.
Alright, hopefully, this post can bring more fruitful dialogue for everyone.
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@ Joel
“Tyrone??!! That is a name commonly associated with African-Americans – classic that you would cry “bigotry” whilst resorting to racial stereotype to illustrate “street thugs”. LOL!!”
Calls me a bigot doesn’t realize I’m half African American lol. Black people reguraly make that joke (You can also insert “pnut and them”, “Shaniqua” etc) to represent someone really ghetto anyways…
No one is good but God – are you now claiming that muslims can become “good” like god?
I mean good as in using Paulus’s words “godly living” (rolls eyes). There is a “transition” between someone doing all sorts of sin and evil to “godly living”
christians don’t claim to be able to predict the actions of their God. Jesus teaches the forgiveness of sin and genuine repentance.
Then how can you comment on salvation? You’re caught in an illogical position and to escape the position this excuse is used when you had no problem answering any other time. We have genuine repentance as well but apparently, it is ridiculous that God can do both Forgiveness and Judgement.
Dude, what is the problem with your reading comprehension? Sinners are to blame, Jesus holds the accountability, thus God’s justice is perfect because all sin is paid for and forgiveness is merely a matter of acceptance.
I asked before and I’ll ask again: “When a Christian cheats someone they are to blame (I got that) What happens to when they commit injustice to another party? There are only 2 options:
1. Jesus takes the accountability to protect the Christian and causes the wronged party to lose their right to justice
2. Jesus doesn’t take the accountability and thus Jesus doesn’t take away all sin
I’ll take either premise I just want to know which one is it?
Finally, qb never said humans absolve one another. What was said is IF a punishment God sent down is performed on a believer in this life He does not punish them in the Next for it. God Himself absolves them from the sin. Also as a note you challenged where is this in Islam here you go:
https://sunnah.com/muslim/29/34
As a note, you accused Islam of “human sacrifice”. Are you serious? I’m actually stunned you would have the audacity to bring this up, Paul literally says:
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22)
All of Christian theology is based on sacrifice. God according to Christianity forgave people only after they performed a sacrifice to Him such as a ram or lamb. Jesus comes as a human and divine aspect of God and is a “”lamb” to be sacrificed for the world. You’re an ENTIRE religion is based off God performing a human sacrifice to Himself.
Moving on, you claimed the capital punishment makes the person a sinner so my question to you in the OT when God orders the death to apostasy for example here is a whole chapter dedicated to the subject:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+13&version=NKJV
Or orders Moses(as) to kill all the apostates who worshipped the Golden Calf:
27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has BLESSED you this day.” (Exodus 32:21-29)
He ordered sin and blessed sinners lol? I’m just curious where you’re going to go with this because you ignored this last time I brought this up.
Good deeds in Islam function as a means to “show” piety to others
We have never held that position and Christianity and Islam agree on this topic. If you do a deed to show piety it is rejected. We’re literally talking basics here dude.
Sin can be absolved in different ways. It depends on the sin.
This is proof that allah is a false god – probably satan.
How is He false for absolving people of their sin? God forgives sin when someone gives charity for example. Their are many ways God forgives because He is Loving and Merciful.
As a final note because it a major pet peeve of mine when Christians say “The True God YHWH” 2 points to make:
1. Jesus never uses YHWH in the entire NT
2. Jesus calls God either Abba, Elah or Elaha
According to Bible study tools, Allah is used 95 times in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/elahh-aramaic.html
Here’s another pronunciation tab from Strong’s Dictionary:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h426
And oh my goodness what is this? This is an article that the word Jesus uses in Aramaic (contrary to popular belief this is his native tongue not English) for God what does it say:
“There are two words for God in Aramaic El and alaha (Syriac) or Elahi (Biblical Aramaic).The word is almost identical to the Arabic ‘alah’.”
http://learnaramaic.blogspot.com/2012/06/god-in-aramaic.html#.WzCz16dKjrc
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LOL, little Coco must feel really embarrassed after this beat down!
Also, Coco doesn’t realize that his Bible uses pagan myths to describe Yahweh. In many places, Yahweh is almost identical to El, the supreme god of the Canaanite pantheon.
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q and bs
Nope, not feeling any sense of a beatdown.
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Well it makes sense. After all, you monkeys have been known to fling feces at each other! There doesn’t seem to be any sense of shame or embarrassment in you simians. LOL!!
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stew
Using a racial stereotype makes you a racist – that must be awkward when you are mixed race.
What on earth are you trying to say here?
Do you have any comprehension at all? Allah does not judge – he forgives willy-nilly, meaning that justice goes out the window. The true god, yahweh, fulfills perfect justice by taking the payment for sin upon himself, so all injustices are rectified, and because of his perfect love he forgives. We can choose to accept salvation or not. In islam because allah can arbitrarily choose to show mercy to anyone, sin can go unpunished and justice is not served. Allah cannot, therefore, be the true god.
Your questions are stupid, and barely coherent. What are you even trying to say here???!!! How can you square your claim that jesus taking accountability for sins leaves justice unaddressed? Your question contains the answer to your silly question.
LOL!!! You are a case. Q and BS said exactly that murdering adulterers absolves them….here you go.
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/24/the-example-of-the-church-on-faith-and-deeds-cerbies-nightmare-gets-worse/#comment-2049
You need to memorize your quran ……
If islam teaches that humans can absolve people of sins by murdering them, then you are contradicting the words of your supposed god, and committing shirk at the same time.
COMPREHENSION FAIL! I said no such thing.
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“Allah does not judge – he forgives willy-nilly,”
DEFINE forgiveness dog
“meaning that justice goes out the window.”
DEFINE FORGIVENESS DOG
“The true god, yahweh, fulfills perfect justice by taking the payment for sin upon himself, so all injustices are rectified,”
thats like i rape the victim and then the victim tells the judge,
“please PUNISH me for him raping me ”
you have said yhwh is CORRUPT .
“and because of his perfect love he forgives.”
DEFINE FORGIVENESS .
” We can choose to accept salvation or not. ”
hahaahaha….your god went around threating the jews with ETERNAL damantion if they dont make him messiah, LOL
where was the CHOICE there ?
”
In islam because allah can arbitrarily choose to show mercy to anyone, sin can go unpunished and justice is not served. Allah cannot, therefore, be the true god.”
define mercy
define justice
DEFINE FORGIVENESS
DEFINE ARBITRARILY
why does not “justice” take into consideration that the person has “born in sin nature” and “satanic whispering ”
DEFINE FAIR
is god FAIR ?
DAVID did the crime of ADULTERY, why if JUSTICE REQUIRED him to be PUNISHED, WAS he let go FROM PUNISHMENT .
yhwh BREAKS his own rules
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” This is shirk since only god can forgive sins.”
this is what islam teaches. but ot and nt and other jewish writings say god shares his powers with other people .
“What stops muslims from apostatizing or becoming adulterers since the punishment guarantees forgiveness of sin?”
because God said not to do adultery and become apostate dumb retard and with that attitude which is in your question, one will definitely go to hell.
but one thing to note is that the adulterer who feels that punishment is rightly deserved has more balls than the christian coward who hides under jesus’ skirt . even those on death row willingly accept their punishment for the crime they did. you don’t need your goat god to die.
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tony
You are stupid.
WHich do you believe – the word of allah written in the quran which states unequivocally that only allah can forgive sins, or some supposed “authentic” hadith written 200 years after the death of mohamed in which your prophet contradicts the word of your “god” by saying murdering adulterers absolves them?
Answer the question please.
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hey dog, why don’t you quote the hadeeth ?
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“murdering adulterers absolves them…”
remember, you need to find the words “the act of stoning….” REMOVES the sins .
does the blood of ANIMALS atone for sins ?
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so does the blood clear the sin ? (magic? )
does the process of cutting the neck clear the sin ? (works)
does the suffering of the animal clear the sin ? (damage )
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“Exactly. Good deeds in Islam function as a means to “show” piety to others – precisely what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God incarnate, Son Of God and Second person of the Trinity condemned.”
QUOTE :
14“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
let me ask, how does this system not the cause of showing off your deeds to be seen by men? you going around with the INTENTION to show people “light”
if you hide the “light” who is going to see? so already he system is set up to be “seen by men” so they say to you “good deed ” already they are thinking your MENSTRUAL rags are “good deeds” which then implies …..
QUOTE :
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’e 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
how many christians who go on “good deed” missions obey the crap written above? the guy tells you to go on “good deed” missions, then CUT your eyes out if you lusted. do you obey this crap ?
“Christians perform good deeds as a by-product of our gratitude for God’s mercy,”
ahh load of bollocks!
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” The true god, yahweh, fulfills perfect justice by taking the payment for sin upon himself, so all injustices are rectified, and because of his perfect love he forgives.”
so a woman is raped. she is told by her rapist “god PUNISHED himself for this rape action i did on you”
and she is told ” you too are a SINNER….”
notice what is going on ? slowly by slowly the VICTIM is being taken out of the picture, her sins FOCUSED on and jesus is BROUGHT in . the rapist already feels he has his GUILT removed by yhwhs RAPE of the son .
you bring an IRRELEVANT “payment” /USELESS “payment”
DEFINE JUSTICE
to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one’s misdeeds:
do justice,
to act or treat justly or fairly.
so punishing jesus for x raping y was FAIR, right? was just, right?
jesus fairly GOT PUNISHED .
x does rape, action goes back in time and plugs on jesus. jesus GETS punished and raped. this means in christian “justice system” the father gave FAIR punishment , right?
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” and because of his perfect love he forgives….”
DEFINE JUSTICE
to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one’s misdeeds:
do justice,
to act or treat justly or fairly.
FORGIVENESS MEANS TO RELEASE/LET GO WITHOUT PUNISHMENT .
////////
you have to admit that crosstianities “forgiveness” plan was CRIMINAL plan. human sacrfice is CRIMINAL.
god could NOT RELEASE/LET go he HAD to punish MEAT PUPPET “innocent” before he RELEASE.
crosstians are not FORGIVEN, they see a cross to REMIND THEMSELVES that god punished “fully man meat puppet” because he couldn’t RELEASE WITHOUT VIOLENT HUMAN SACRIFICIAL RITUAL.
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@ Paulus
1. Apostasy, Sin, and Allah
Before I respond to the rest can’t help but notice you didn’t respond to this topic again. God ordered apostates to be killed so did He order sin and bless sinners as you claimed. Also, nothing to say about Jesus worshipping Allah either?
2. Racist?
It’s a standard joke among African Americans and is playing off that these type of people fulfill that racial stereotype. Bigotry is, for example, an Australian thinking they are better than aboriginals (even to the point of thinking it’s ridiculous that God could have sent them revelation like I’ve read commentators said on this blog) Or believing God would only exalt one race of people over everyone and let the rest be tortured in Hell forever. But this is not the topic of our discussion.
3. Absolving of sin through capital punishment
The question you had is where is the evidence and it was presented to you. You are now doing a “Moving the Goal Post” fallacy by questioning the authenticity of hadith. The only contention was where does Islam teach this?
4. The Jesus intercession issue
Ironically you accuse me of a lack of comprehension but then believe my answer is in the question. I’ll try again in story format:
Mike does real estate and does a business deal with a local church. He pays them money for some land but when it comes time to give the land to him the pastor decides not to give Mike the land nor his money back and gets away with it. On the Day of Judgement, how would God rectify this situation for Mike (who in this example is not Christian)? Does:
1. Jesus take the accountability to protect the Christians and cause Mike to lose his right to justice?
2. Jesus doesn’t take the accountability and thus Jesus doesn’t take away all sin
5. Humans absolve sin
Please see my irony in reading comprehension above. No text states humans absolve the sin and you kinda just proved it using the Quran lol. Again we believe EVERYTHING from God is right and perfect including His laws. Unlike Christians who believe it is a “curse” and impossible for humans.
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stew
Red herrings. Try again.
So you agree that you were being racist.
Wow, the dishonesty is strong with you. Here is what I said…..
Which was in response to this q and bs stupid comment…
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/24/the-example-of-the-church-on-faith-and-deeds-cerbies-nightmare-gets-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-2102
Are you guys really that dumb? So go ahead show me the texts in the quran that support the idea that murdering adulterers absolves them of sin.
LOL!! So q and bs is wrong? You kill adulterers as a means to appease your god – this is classic human sacrifice.
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“Red herrings. Try again.”
LOL, just saying “red herrings, try again” doesn’t absolve you. Stew asked a relevant question, which you, the dancing monkey, refuse to answer because you know it will trap you. Monkeys don’t like being cornered, do they? Once cornered, they start howling and hooting and then comes the throwing of feces!
“So you agree that you were being racist.”
Hahahaha, no he said that you are an idiot to use the “race” card because you are not African-American, whereas he is. You don’t get to tell him what is “racist” or not. Also, as I pointed out previously, “Tyrone” is not just an African-American name. It is also an Irish name, you mook.
Bottom line is that you are just trying to distract from your failure to address Stew’s legitimate points. Besides, for you to cry “racism”, when your sinful savior was himself a racist, your crocodile tears on behalf of African-Americans are rather unimpressive. Now dance monkey!
“Wow, the dishonesty is strong with you. Here is what I said…..”
LOL, lying again Darth? You got embarrassed and then pretended like you asked a different question. As it stands, your dancing is making you look like a fool.
“https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/24/the-example-of-the-church-on-faith-and-deeds-cerbies-nightmare-gets-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-2102
Are you guys really that dumb? So go ahead show me the texts in the quran that support the idea that murdering adulterers absolves them of sin.”
You idiot! you were shown that punishments are instituted by Allah (swt) and that they expiate for the specific sin committed. Stop acting like a dunce for once and accept that you were wrong.
“LOL!! So q and bs is wrong? You kill adulterers as a means to appease your god – this is classic human sacrifice.”
LOL, no it means you are wrong and an idiot! I never said that “humans” absolve the sin, you moron! I said that when a person wants to be forgiven for a sin in which he wronged someone else, he must FIRST seek forgiveness from that person and THEN Allah (swt) will forgive him. Get it, chimp? It depends on the sin. If you were to say miss a prayer because you were lazy, forgiveness will come from repenting to Allah (swt) and then striving never to miss a prayer again out of laziness. But if you were to steal from someone, and then simply repent to Allah (swt), even if sincerely, Allah (swt) will say that you must first return the stolen goods or compensate the victim in some other way. Only then will Allah (swt) forgive the sin. The sin if forgiven by Allah (swt) once certain actions are taken by the sinner.
Now read that carefully. Go on…you can do it. There’s a good primate.
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@ Joel
It is not a red herring, your claiming a rule THAT IS IN YOUR RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE is for “human sacrifice” lol. Idk if that is the Christian interpretation but that’s not what it is in Islam. YOUR book even says Moses was blessed for fulling the command, so Elah (the name Jesus used) has no problem with the rule.
Next, since you seem set on crying bigotry, I ignored it to move on but since you want to keep bringing the topic up you actually made a bigoted statement here:
“Using a racial stereotype makes you a racist – that must be awkward when you are MIXED RACE.”
“Mixed race” implies that I am not truly of African or Caucasian descent but some mutt in between them both. I don’t become some new race just because two races came together I share cultural conditions from both. Moving on though because this is irrelevant…
Next, we have two bases for revelation in Islam God and Prophet Muhammad. So the text provided is enough for the subject we are discussing. This would be like you showing me a text of Jesus(as) saying something about God and then saying well where does God say that. The Prophet Jesus(as) was sent by God to explain things to the people the same applies to Prophet Muhammad(saw). God in the Qur’an is, for the most part, mentioning general rules or event’s that happened in the Prophet’s (saw) life in passing. Even in this example, the general concept is there:
As for those who hurl accusations at virtuous women, and then fail to provide four witnesses, lash them eighty times, and never accept their testimony afterwards because they’re misguided. EXCEPT those who later repent and make amends, because God is Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful. (24:4-5)
Oh you who believe! Stand firmly for justice, as witnesses before God, even if it is against yourselves, your parents, or your closest family members. Whether the person is rich or poor, God is their GREATER WELL-WISHER AND PROTECTOR than you; therefore, refrain from following your own personal desires, so that you do not deviate… (4:135)
Muslims do not interpret Scripture by what we want it to say. God says something and the Prophet(saw) explains or expounds upon it, you cannot divorce the two.
Finally, this is just the strangest thing to me about you talking about human sacrifices. You literally believe Jesus(as) was a human sacrifice to expiate your sins! You’re like the last person who should talk about sacrifices to appease God.
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“You’re like the last person who should talk about sacrifices to appease God.”
Jesus could have offered some bread to appease Coco’s god!
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faiz, stew, shaad, how would you guys address this nonsense :
“You moron. God takes the payment for sin onto himself and God can do whatever he wants. Your objection is silly.”
from technical point of view god doesn’t actually take anything on, he created a human nature and does his wrecking job of it. in other words , that human nature, is described as “innocent” like innocent animals and new born baby. so from technical point of view, has god “taken on ” anything ?
doesn’t the objection god “punishes ANYONE SINLESS/INNOCENT” still stand?
i mean, he could have , according to crosstian theology, punished jesus as soon as he made his first cry….baby jesus….
also notice “god can do whatever he wants” which means he does not need to punish “innocent human nature” and simply forgive. just say ” i forgive you” and thats it.
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toni
It is really difficult to understand what you are trying to say – most of your posts are incoherent and just plain dumb.
That’s allah you are talking about – remember he forgives whom he wills and justice goes unanswered. this is why allah is not the true god but an imposter – he allows sin to go unpunished.
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” most of your posts are incoherent and just plain dumb.”
doesn’t matter, my brothers here have done a good job exposing the dirty crosstian that you are.
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Well, Tony certainly makes a lot more sense than your vague, incoherent and contradictory ramblings Coco! I wouldn’t throw stones if I were you. Or is that feces? Which ones do you monkeys throw?
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toni
You have done a good job of exposing your own wicked heart.
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how about the wicked you do joel? you just transfer it to jesus dont you? everytime you do your sins, you just believe in transferring of sins, isn’t it? don’t preach about “holiness” bs …..
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hey joel ,
are you holy ?
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yhwh “holy” god have privation within him
yhwh “holy” god can ACTUALIZE privations WITH IN him
yhwh “holy” god ACTUALISED SEXUAL temptation privations within him ERGO yhwh is NOT holy god.
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yhwh is “perfect god” and “holy”
yhwh has to ACTUALIZE what he has experience of otherwise he cannot be “maximally perfect”
if yhwh have SEXUAL temptations like he did in wilderness he has to ALWAYS actualize this in order to BE MAXIMALLY perfect. ergo yhwh CANNOT BE a holy god.
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(Rubs eyes)
Man, are we still discussing this? Hey, Toni, QB and Shaad quick question I tried performing a ctrl+ F function to see if Joel answered:
1. Good deeds are an extension of faith. And the weighing of them is God enacting justice for the creation.
2. God blessing and ordering killing apostates.
3. Jesus never saying YHWH in the NT and calling God Elah
4, The intercession dilemma and God’s justice
5. No one saying humans absolve the sins of others
Did any of these get answered because I couldn’t find a response?
P.S. mad props to Toni in refuting Joel and saying God is unjust for forgiving as He wishes by using David(as) and Bathsheba. Of course, we reject the story but it does show Christianity’s inconsistency on God’s judgment with the Hebrew Bible and how they really are two different books). Anyways God in this case “let the sin go unpunished” and forgave when David repented.
But I wanted to add another problem with this extremism of not being able to stand before God and Jesus needing to be the mediator because of our sins:
1. God knew we were going to sin before He created us.
2. Christian always say to Muslims when they want to prove God became a human “He can do all things”. But when it comes to sin God can’t forgive. Again sin comes in multiple categories and you do not harm God by sinning, you only harm yourself. If everyone on Earth said tomorrow they believe in God or do not believe in God He does not gain or lose anything. He only puts His laws down for our benefit and for us to be grateful and worship Him. For example, fornication. Do you think God is harmed by us having sex out of wedlock? No, He made the rule for a variety of reasons including:
A. Stable families
B. Protection of women
C. Prevention of Stds
D. Allowing you to find a mate that makes you happy
E. The manifestation of His attributes of being All-Knowing and Wise
So in this perspective forgiving sin is easy for God. For example, when you tell a child don’t touch the stove or you’ll burn yourself and then they touch it. You didn’t get harmed by this it was only the child. You may become angry they didn’t listen but at the end of the day you tell them it’s okay and put their hand under some cool water because they don’t know what is good and bad or them.
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“Christian always say to Muslims when they want to prove God became a human “He can do all things”. But when it comes to sin God can’t forgive. “
What we say is God can do all things without compromising his nature. Because if he compromised his nature, he wouldn’t be Hod by definition. And contrary to your claim, we believe God forgives, but he must forgive in such a way that his nature is not compromised.
In the Islamic mind, Allah simply chooses to forgive whom he wills. But such compromises the divine holiness and justice of who God must be to be God by definition. Ergo, Allah is an imposter.
The cross of Christ, and the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant before it, allow God to both punish sin and maintain his holiness aswell as forgive sins and be merciful.
“you do not harm God by sinning, you only harm yourself. “
This is the real difference. Your doctrine of sin is so weak, which means your doctrine of god is also weak. Bigger problem though is this contradicts the Quran which describes Allah as being angry. Why is Allah angry if he is not harmed by sinning?
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“Because if he compromised his nature,”
how is he “compromising ” his nature ? you see…you dirty damaged crosstian throw out words without explaining anything .
“he wouldn’t be Hod by definition.”
why not ?
1. god knows that the human is “damaged from birth” (born in sin bs)
human is tempted by satan and his nature
the truth is sin is too powerful for your god. he treats ALL sins equally and requires BLOOD SPILLING….which means he can’t be merciful, FAIR or just. he has to be unjust to even those who repent .
”
And contrary to your claim, we believe God forgives, but he must forgive in such a way that his nature is not compromised.”
blood spilling cools your god off and then he releases from punishment….that is not FORGIVENESS
”
In the Islamic mind, Allah simply chooses to forgive whom he wills.”
AND punish whom HE WILLS. in islamic concept the SINNER gets to experience Gods punishment , how does passing ALL your sins to jesus mean you are EXPERIENCING the punishment for your CRIMES ?
either God accept REPENTANCE or He does not and have MERCY or He punishes.
”
But such compromises the divine holiness and justice of who God must be to be God by definition. Ergo, Allah is an imposter.”
, you do not explain why your virgin god gets DEFLOWERED by sin and his “holiness” spoiled .
how does BLOOD SPILLING keep that “holinesss” holy ?
”
The cross of Christ, and the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant before it, allow God to both punish sin and maintain his holiness aswell as forgive sins and be merciful.”
how does god PUNISHING himself like self abuser “maintain his holiness” ?
“you do not harm God by sinning, you only harm yourself. “
This is the real difference. Your doctrine of sin is so weak, which means your doctrine of god is also weak. Bigger problem though is this contradicts the Quran which describes Allah as being angry. Why is Allah angry if he is not harmed by sinning?”
the difference is that your gods anger is like human anger….when he sees sin, he self abuses himself . YOUR god had URGES to come in a body and get RAVAGED,RAPED……..
on the other hand, ALLAHS anger is not the christian gods urge experiences .
when a human is angry he goes through changes, his views about someone changes. he experiences a change of state. yhwh HAD URGES to expeirence this in a human body ergo yhwh ACTUALIZED urge within him…..
the only conclusion is that “anger” means PUNISHMENT OF ALLAH for DISOBEYING THE LAWS OF ALLAH.
BEFORE ALLAH CREATED ANYTHING, THE LAW WHICH HE ALWAYS KNEW OF WAS :
REPENTANCE = BLESSING
CAUSING CORRUPTION IN THE LAND, IDOLATRY…..NOT REPENTING FROM IT AND CONTINUING = PUNISHMENT .
GOD DOES NOT GO THROUGH CHANGES. yhwh HAS URGES TO GO THROUGH CHANGES. yhwh is a FALSE PAGAN god .
tell me how does a god NOT PUNISHING the criminal and punishing a “righteous” CREATED body mean he can “maintain his holiness” ?
is the SUFFERING on the body something which causes change in your gods feelings ?
is the blood spilling an URGE controller ?
does holiness REQUIRE/DEMAND THROAT CUTTING AND BLOOD SPILLING ?
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“What we say is God can do all things without compromising his nature. Because if he compromised his nature, he wouldn’t be Hod by definition. And contrary to your claim, we believe God forgives, but he must forgive in such a way that his nature is not compromised.”
difine forgiveness INFIDEL.
you are saying god has a nature which DEMAND BLOOD SPILLING, THROAT CUTTING and TRANSFERENCE OF SINS . you need to prove that this is what gods NATURE is . where is the proof? now explain, how can you stand before “holy” god with your menstrual rags ? you see what i mean? i was arguing all the time that your DEFECTED nature, repentance, evil heart cannot stand before “holy god” so this means god is LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE hahahahaahahah meaning you are crap in your gods eyes , you joel and whole of christiandom.
so like the jews said :
And ironically, Rabbi, that is exactly what Christians REALLY believe when they are not trying to convert people, but living their life in a cycle of sin and repentance. How many times have we seen the bumper sticker that reads, “Christians are not Perfect, just Forgiven”?
This is the catch-22 they face. If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus? On the other hand, if they are still sinning even after accepting Jesus (and ALL of them are, by their own admission), then on what basis are they fit for God’s presence, if sinless perfection is the qualifying criteria? Think about this: if it is about “the blood of Jesus” and “Jesus dying for our sins”, then there is no need for repentance or even right-doing, since God does not consider your sin, but Jesus’ supposed perfection in your place.
////////////////////
so you giving your “menstrual rags” to yhwh is not enough NOT even your ACT of believing . you guys are proving my points i made before ….yhwh is seeing you people as crap with legs….DAMAGED….and jesus is LETTING you guys GET AWAY with CRIMES I.E CORRUPTION
your gods “holiness2 is really CORRUPTION.
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@ Paulus
Actually, your definition of God is the weak one. The Bible basically says He regretted a creation He made(even though logically He should’ve known they would sin beforehand) and then threw a temper tantrum and threatened to destroy them:
The Lord REGRETTED that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was DEEPLY TROUBLED. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I REGRET that I have made them.” (Genesis 6 6:7)
To show how weak the Bible’s concept of God is He is actually scared of mankind:
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” (Genesis 11: 5-7)
Yea… this is not an All-Powerful being. Your definition of God is subject to the whims of its creation. In Islam, God is Independent of the creation and we are the ones who need Him Even though I literally just answered this, His wrath is on them for disobedience and not fulfilling their purpose of worship, not because He was harmed. I’ll again direct you to the tale of David and Bathsheba in the Boble God simply accepted the repentance where was the justice for the man who the book alleges David wronged? He should;ve been stoned but gets away Scott free even though he was a known adulterer (authoo bilah)
Also, I’ll ask the question again that everyone keeps avoiding if there is justice what happens when a Christian wrongs someone in this life how is justice served in the Next?
Moving on the Jews don’t believe in a sacrifice system the sacrifice was a penalty that was paid for ACCIDENTAL sins not intentional or major ones (the Bible even says this). Instead of reading Paul who half quotes and jams unrelated verses together (while never once quoting Jesus) actually read up on Jewish beliefs. Even if you just use simple logic, do you think the Jews who lived when the Temple was destroyed or even OUTSIDE of Israel didn’t think their sins would ever be forgiven? You claim your concept of God needs blood sacrifices to forgive and that somehow embodies justice (even though this does nothing for the people who were wronged by others) but I’ll ask again what happened before Christ to the nations OUTSIDE of Israel? This point alone is enough to refute Christianity theology (and most religions). They can never explain what happened before their religion came around.
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Brilliant response!
This is particularly telling and shows how contradictory and blasphemous the Bible is at times:
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” (Genesis 11: 5-7)
WOW!! Not only is “God” shown to be afraid of what humans are capable of, he also deliberately causes “confusion” among them! And yet Christians complain about Allah (swt) causing unbelievers to go astray because of their sins.
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brothers, its the same with “tree of life”
if adam eat from it, he would have lived forever, this caused god concern … what the hell is a tree which gives eternal life doing in the garden ?
a TREE GAVE ETERNAL LIFE!
A TREE!
A TREE!
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All these words and yet not a single answer to my points? Deflection much?
If Allah simply forgives sins, his holiness and justice is compromised. Allah is an imposter therefore.
Stew attempted to andswer the second point but failed miserably. If Allah punished people for their sins then it logically follows that Allah was effected by them. Otherwise his punishment is arbitary. Allah cannot be God therefore. So by admitting that Allah gets angry at his creation you have admitted that Allah is effected by sin, thereby contradicting your former point. If people “don’t fulfill their worship obligations”, why would this matter to Allah if he is not effected?
Furthermore, Stew doesn’t realise that the bible uses anthropomorphisms which roundly answers his criticism easily. Well, he probably does, since the Quran uses them as well. Or does Allah actually have ears to “hear” prayers and does he actually have “eyes” to see his creation? But Stew has a problem with the depiction of God “regretting”? So either Stew is being inconsistent or he is committing shirk. Which is it pal?
stew thinks isolating one part of the narrative on David confirms Islam. But fails to mention that David followed the sacrificial system. This is the dishonest tactics of muhammadan polemics.
Meanwhile Tony has finally shown his radical nature declaring me an infidel and Britney tags along like a lost little girlfriend behind Stew cheering his illogical and deceitful comments. Welcome to masjid 101
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All these words and still not a single coherent thought or answer to a question? Deflection as usual?
Allah (swt) does not “simply forgive”. He forgives on the basis of FAITH first and foremost. The faithful will be forgiven because they had faith. Cerbie’s personal opinions are irrelevant.
And then Cerbie attempted to be “logical” but failed miserably. How does it “follow” that Allah (swt) is “effected” (sic) by people’s sins since He punishes them? Non-sequitur much?
Allah (swt) punishes people because when they sin, they harm themselves and possibly others. They don’t affect Allah (swt) at all.
Furthermore, Cerbie doesn’t realize that his appeals to Biblical “anthropomorphism” actually does not answer Stew’s legitimate criticisms. Nor do his deflections to descriptions of Allah (swt) in the Quran. When the Quran says that Allah (swt) “hears”, Muslims believe that He indeed does, but we do NOT say that it means that Allah (swt) has “ears” like His creation. We say that we don’t know HOW He “hears”. We just know that He does. The same applies to His “sight”. Clearly, this answer does not apply to Yahweh in the Bible. Why would you describe Yahweh as having “regrets” for creating mankind? Having a regret is a human condition. The Almighty would not have regrets (notice that the Quran NEVER describes Allah as having “regrets”). Nor would He be afraid of what humans are capable of. BTW, if Yahweh was so afraid of what humans were capable of when they built the Tower of Babel, how does he feel now when mankind has built even taller structures, like the Empire State Builiding or the Burj Khalifa?
Cerbie thinks that looking at the worst episode of sin in the life of the Biblical David is somehow “isolating one part”. Well no, because that was a horrible sin on David’s part, so much so that even Yahweh himself says that it was the ONLY part of David’s life where he screwed up royally (pun intended). Cerbie thinks that David followed the sacrificial system. Well, if that was the case, then how did David seek forgiveness for his adultery using the sacrificial system? Can Cerbie explain? Or will he be the typical dishonest and deflective crosstian apologist that he usually is?
Meanwhile, Cerbie STILL has yet to answer Stew’s question. All he can do is whine about being called an infidel. Hmmm, that’s funny, because I am pretty sure that Cerbie has shown his radical nature by declaring Muslims as “antiChrists” (do tell me if I am mistaken). Welcome to crosstianity 101. BTW, is Cerbie married? Or maybe he has a girlfriend of his own? Or maybe…he is divorced?
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No, Coco didn’t answer those questions. He just danced like he usually does.
The problem for Christians is that they maintain that their god does not allow “sin” in his “presence”. But no matter what he does to “wash” their sins away, they will remain sinners forever. Nothing will change. If an adulterer accepts Jesus as his savior, he is still an adulterer and the fact that he committed adultery in the past will not change. So, what ends up happening is that the Christian god will allow sin in his presence, despite the Christians’ insistence that he will not. Like I said, the Christian god is very confused.
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I like the way you copy Christians comments. Is that because the Quran copies other works or because you just can’t think for yourself?
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I like the way you try to distract from your failures. Is that because you have no answers and have been cornered like a frightened dog?
Copying? Like what? Oh do you mean the way the Bible copies Canaanite myths? Is that the copying you mean?
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look at the portrayal of the father
he is too “holy”
he doesn’t come down as a man. he simply sends a person . what picture is being portrayed here? the father does not want to spill his blood, he wants to spill his sons blood . the son willingly wants to get spilled to “maintain holiness” of father.
what picture is being portrayed here? that the father is far DISTANT god who is SELF OBSESSED with his holiness and the son gets splattered to “maintain holiness ” of father.
who is more loving ? the splattered one or the sent one?
it isn’t that god loves crosstians…. it is protection for his “holiness”. i was right all the time. the “love” WAS not the motivator, what the motivator was to prevent DAMAGE to “holiness” of father.
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@ Paulus
Allah can forgive sin because most sins are us harming ourselves in due to stupidity. The only thing He doesn’t forgive is idolatry. Unlike in the Christian concept, a true judge takes the condition of each person being judged and does not make blanket judgments as that is arbitrary. For example, a person stealing is wrong. A person stealing food because they were starving now it’s a little grayer area. Allah (or Ellah is we want to use what Jesus used) takes all these points to account. You will be judged differently than Donald Trump or someone who is mentally challenged because you are of different conditions (authority, influence, intellect, etc). God forgives according to the conditions.
Next, we don’t have anthropomorphism in Islam and this IS actually in a category of shirk called shirk al asma wa sifat (idolatry in God’s names and attributes). Even though QB answered pretty well that you added ears in His ability to hear. In Islam the attributes are only similar in name, for example, face of a mountain, hands of a clock are not a human face or hands. Something with Hand of God and Eyes of God etc.
As for sinners not fulfilling their obligations this STILL does not affect Him. God owns us and if we don’t do what we are created then their is no purpose of keeping us around. If you have a broken computer do you still keep it or do you throw it away? Unlike the Christian concept who lives in fear of mankind defeating Him please allow me to quote God on how he feels about the subject:
O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will NOT attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will NOT attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not INCREASE My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not DECREASE My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give EVERYONE what he requested, that would not DECREASE what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good, praise Allah, and let him who finds other than that, blame no one but himself.
Yea… no comparison between the two concepts. He does not care what we do in this life. He created us with a purpose and gave us the ability to choose if we will fulfill it. That is basically the summing up of human existence.
As for the “sacrifice system,” I was going to save it for the crucifixion article(again sorry guys for the time I’ve been busy at work). Please allow me to teach you Jewish belief:
Jews believe there are three methods of atonement: The sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. The sin sacrifice does not atone for all types of sin, only unintentional ones and is inadequate to atone for sins committed intentionally. The rebellious sinner was barred from the Sanctuary and had to bear his own iniquity because of his deliberate intent to sin against God.
“If a person sins UNINTENTIONALLY, then he shall offer a one year old FEMALE goat for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who goes astray when he sins UNINTENTIONALLY, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven… But the person who does anything DEFIANTLY, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.” (Numbers 15:27-31)
Let us now examine the words of Jacob Milgrom as he speaks about sacrifices:
“Inadvertence is a key criterion in all expiatory sacrifice. A deliberate, brazen sinner is barred from the sanctuary.”
(Num. 15:30-31, Leviticus 1-16: Anchor Bible; New York: Doubleday, 1991, p. 228.)
“Substitution was allowed only in cases of inadvertence. Where the offense against God had been intentional, ritual expiation did not apply.” (Baruch Levine, The JPS Torah Commentary: Leviticus; The Traditional Hebrew Text with the New JPS Translation (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1989), p. 115, on Leviticus 17:11.)
In addition to referring to unintentional sins, the limited nature of blood sacrifices can also be seen in Leviticus 5:13 that directs a poor penitent person, who could not afford an animal offering, to offer a non-blood, flour offering in its place. There were even certain cases when unintentional sins did not require a blood sacrifice. For example, if someone committed involuntary manslaughter (Numbers Chapter 35) they were exiled to a “city of refuge” to protect them from a relative seeking revenge. The exile served as a means of punishment and atonement, without a blood sacrifice.. The chapter also discusses another form of sin offering known as a guilt offering, (referred to in Hebrew as an “asham” – אשם
The reason behind this rule was to teach the person to pay more attention. The cost of the purchasing the animal sacrifice helps to remind you that there are actual consequences. This concept is similar to Islam where certain sins require a person to physically do something as part of their repentance.
I do respond to the misquoted verses Paul uses but the verse I quoted is clear-cut enough to answer the point.
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The fact that non-blood offerings were accepted in certain situations completely debunks the Christians’ obsession with blood sacrifice. I mean, there is not much blood in wheat!
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“Allah can forgive sin because most sins are us harming ourselves in due to stupidity.“
If this was true, then there is no need for forgiveness in the first place, is there? Nor would it be just to punish somebody who “only harmed themselves”.
The true reality is that all sin is an offence to the glory of God, so He is right to punish sin. But in love and mercy he chose to offer forgiveness through Christ. Only Christianity makes sense.
Your comments are only further demonstrating that Islam is false
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”
The true reality is that all sin is an offence to the glory of God, so He is right to punish sin.”
but you never demonstrated how it is OFFENCE to the glory of god. .
does it weaken him, hurt him , cause him to abuse himself like self abuser? does it make him sad ? ALL these emotions DID NOT even exist, so you believe god has emotional CAUSES within his nature and these are PERMANENT ? if yes, why did he create the universe?
for example, in his mind, he saw you watching your neighbours wife in unholy way, why did he bring you in to existence….SINCE EMOTIONS ARE PART OF YOUR god EVEN BEFORE UNIVERSE began, since he KNEW that you would do this unholy sin….since his mind is SOILED , why are you here on earth ?
WHY aren’t you in HELL?
remember, swimming in blood of jesus just makes your rags more bloodier.
WHY AREN’T you in hell?
he knows about sins BEFORE THEY come into existence , ACTUALISES them, punishes himself and continues to actualise them….
what is going on ?
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“Allah (swt) punishes people because when they sin, they harm themselves and possibly others. They don’t affect Allah (swt) at all.”
i think there is a thing called “sunnatullah ” or the “decree/way” of Allah and Allah does not go against His “sunna”
this has nothing to do with EMOTIONS , this has everything to do with WHO GOD IS. The crosstian god on the other hand ACTUALIZES possibilities like sexual temptations, graphic temptations and exercises them in his mind as “fully god and fully man ” (1 person )
it is not yhwh team god 3 players who is HOLY, BUT ALLAH WHO IS HOLY!
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“we don’t have anthropomorphism in Islam “
“In Islam the attributes are only similar in name“
That second statement demonstrates your first was false. You clearly don’t even know what you believe or think. I’m not saying Allah has literal ears or eyes, merely that the Koran uses imagery that is common to humans to convey its point. Such is the case with the bible too. But you won’t allow it, will you? Instead you will insist on a literal meaning which is not what Christians believe.
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“Unlike the Christian concept who lives in fear of mankind defeating Him“
Hmm, go ahead and provide a single citation from a recognised Christian scholar to support this claim. Otherwise it’s simply another lie to addd to your already heavy burden list. You’re in trouble my friend.
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“The only thing He doesn’t forgive is idolatry“
“O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you.”
Notice how you contradict the Koran again. Allah says he forgives “all sins”
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“He does not care what we do in this life.“
Then why are we punished for this life?
#islamfailsagain
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“As for the “sacrifice system,” I was going to save it for the crucifixion article(again sorry guys for the time I’ve been busy at work). Please allow me to teach you Jewish belief:”
Oh dear, stew thinks citing rabbinal modern Judaism is the same as the old covenant 😂😂
You must be new to apologetics, yes? No one is this silly?
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Anthropomorphism
the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.
This is NOT what I said or what we believe. An example of anthropomorphism is when you see a cat talking in a children’s book because obviously cat’s don’t talk. Saying the face of a mountain or the hands of a clock is not anthropomorphism. In English these are names of those objects they just happen to have the same name as our human hands and face. The same thing applies to the Hand of God or the Face of God etc. that is the name of the thing He is describing. Ellah (I’m going to stick with what Jesus said) is NOT using human imagery to make it easier for us to understand.This is just some pagan belief that you’re trying to defend and attribute to Ellah.
Next, during the water is pure discussion you did not allow me the luxury of scholarly opinion so is it that valid or not Paulus? Also I don’t know why you’re asking for Christian scholarship you ignored it in regards to the little girls given away in Numbers and wife beating and divorce. So you don’t hold it as an authority unless it agrees with your established beliefs.
Your concept of God makes mistakes, is scared of humanity uniting (so I have to assume He’s against world peace as well) and got beat up and robbed by the Prophet Jacob (even after cheating during the fight) and is upset by creation sinning and not worshipping Him even though He knew they were going to sin before He created them and allowed the eating of the fruit in the first place. So you’re concept of God is the weaker one. Plain and simple.
Next, that was not the Qur’an but a hadith Qudsi, you’re right I don’t do apologetics but I think part of the basics is to know what you’re quoting. That was referring to before death, after death they will not be forgiven::
The repentance accepted by God is only for those who do wrong in ignorance or carelessness and then turn back to God soon after. It’s those ˹people˺ whom God will turn to in forgiveness because God is All Knowing and the One to pass judgement. Repentance is not accepted by those who keep continuing in sin until, death approaches one of them ˹and˺ then says: “I’m ready to repent now.” or of those who die in a state of disbelief and ungratefulness. It’s for these people I’ve prepared a painful punishment. (4:17-18)
As for my He does not care comment again I was referring to it does not affect Him sin. This life is a test to serve as proof of whether we were true to what we promised. Your concept of God is throwing temper tantrums because of His mistakes:
WAAAHHH!!! WHY WON’T THEY WORSHIP ME!!!! WAAAAHHHH I SHOULD’VE NEVER EVEN CREATED THEM!!! I’LL SHOW THEM, I’LL SHOW THEM ALL!!!!
Meanwhile, Ellah is really like:
Hey, follow what I sent.
No.
Alright, do you… you gotta come back to Me and then I’m going to show you why you’re being punished.
As for the sacrifice part good thing they were commenting on Numbers that says this is only for accidents and if you sin intentionally it doesn’t cover that.
The final point:
But in love and mercy he chose to offer forgiveness through Christ. Only Christianity makes sense.
It does not make sense Paulus you have 3 major issues in your theology
1. What happened to nations outside of Israel before Christ? Also why wouldn’t he have been sent earlier to save them.
2. It allows the wronging of others and no personal responsibility, please refer to my dilemma of a Christian wronging another.
3. The concept of the Trinity is illogical especially since the Jesus(as) prays to God and is in a subservient position. Again even if you don’t want to admit it to me I’m okay with that. But just meditate on that. You and I know usually the simplest answer is the more correct one. What makes more sense the trinity or people went to the extreme in loving a prophet sent by God and turned him into one? Worship God alone and sunbmit to him Paulus.
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This type of reasoning is very problematic for you. Consider the idea that God is one, or tawhid. If Allah is unlike anything we would consider as ‘one’, then you have no philsophical basis against a hindu or pagan. How can you possibly call them polytheists UNLESS Allah’s oneness is somehow corrolated to what we understand as one? You cant. When allah says he is one, his oneness could theoretically be what we think of as two thousand. Who knows? Youve just made language completely meaningless. Good one!!
Then the same problem can be applied to the topic discussed above. Muslims go to such extremes that they make the idea of allah absolutely absurd, logically speaking.
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YOU dumb crosstian kafir , their gods are compounded gods and their “oneness” is composite like trinity
yhwh the pagan team which consist of 3 players called son, dad, and goat is like the compounded pagan gods we have known about in our times.
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explain what does “one person” mean ? if father have ALL the attributes /all the OMNIS, explain to us what does “one person ” mean
how do you imagine his “one person” ?
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“When allah says he is one, his oneness could theoretically be what we think of as two thousand”
the father says he is one as well, explain what does “one ” mean when the father uses it FOR HIMSELF …. FOR HIMSELF.
he IDENTIFIES himself as ONE. so when ONE PERSON says he is ONE, how do we understand that “one” ? clearly we cannot understand it as “shared one” that is BS language.
he is saying that his PERSON is ONE. what does that mean?
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“YOU dumb crosstian kafir , their gods are compounded gods and their “oneness” is composite like trinity“
See what you did there? You made an assumption that Allah’s oneness is Unitarian or somehow related to what we as humans understand as one, singular. But you can’t do that according to Stew above, because what you did is allow an anthropomorphic understanding to explain Allah. This is contrary to stews version of islam
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trinity says
“faither is god”
define “is god”
is the father one UNITARIAN PERSON
LETS SEE , are you going ASSUME that he is UNITARIAN ?
“is god” would mean father EXISTS as BEING
“IS GOD” WOULD TELL Y0U ABOUT WHAT THE FATHER IS
the word “is” means
third person singular present of be.
be
biː/Submit
verb
1.
exist.
the father exists as ? as a SINGLE UNITARIAN PERSON
IT LIVES AS A SINGLE UNITARIAN PERSON AND IT HAS ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF DIVINITY WHICH MEANS IT IS A BEING
SO THE FATHER EXISTS AS A BEING /UNITARIAN PERSON /UNITARIAN BEING .
THE WORD “is god” DOES NOT MEAN TRIUNE BEING
YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FATHER IS EXISTING AS 3 PERSONS, YOU BELIEVE THAT “is” is “is” of EXISTENCE and it S person HAS ALL THE attributes of divinity and IT exists which means the father is BEING .
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Not to mention you contradict your prophet who said that Allah made Adam in his image.
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Again because you never read the Quran is why you’re using a b.s. philosophical argument. Asma wa sifat is Names AND Attributes.
Al Ahad and Al Wahid are names of his.
Say God is One (112:1)
Hands, Face, Shin etc are His attributes
And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor. (55:27)
See the difference? We don’t attribute to God except what He says. These verses on His attributes are ambiguous and we don’t put our own spin on things. God’s Face (like face of the mountain) will remain. Okay got it moving on.. Verses with His Names are clear cut this is what He is.
As for the hadith:
Adam was created in his image.
Does not mean we look like God, the proper meaning is:
Adam was created in Adam’s image (i.e not a baby he started in his image he was going to be) I’m sorry we just don’t have these pagan concepts in Islam. Now that we cleared that up, please explain God losing a fight, making mistakes and being scared of mankind coming together to overthrow him.
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Even the other interpretation, that Adam was created in Allah’s image, does not mean that Allah (swt) has two eyes, two ears, etc. Hence the explanation of Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah that “when these words are applied to Allah, they carry a unique meaning, such as al-‘Aleem (All Knowing), al-Qadeer (All-Powerful), al-Raheem (Most Merciful), al-Samee’ (All Hearing), al-Baseer (All-Seeing), and such as His creating with His hands, rising above the Throne, etc.”
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Adam was created in Adams image??😂😂😂
You can’t be serious? Surely? Anyway, time to expose your dawah lies…
“These two hadeeth indicate that the pronoun in the phrase “in His image” refers to Allaah, may He be glorified…From these ahaadeeth we learn that it is proven that Allaah has an image (soorah in Arabic), in a manner that befits Him, may He be glorified and exalted. ..”
“Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: “The word soorah (image) in this hadeeth is like all the other names and attributes narrated (in the texts) where the words used may also be applied to created beings, in a limited manner. When these words are applied to Allaah, they carry a unique meaning, such as al-‘Aleem (All Knowing), al-Qadeer (All-Powerful), al-Raheem (Most Merciful), al-Samee’ (All Hearing), al-Baseer (All-Seeing), and such as His creating with His hands, rising above the Throne, etc.” Naqd al-Ta’sees, 3/396 “
Notice the last paragraph says EXACTLY my point, that Adam being made in the image of Allah is the same as the accounts of Allah’s hearing and seeing. They are used in a “limited” sense for created beings.
Face it, you lost the argument (pun intended). Your objection of the biblical narratives only shows your hypocrisy and now your lies
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Again with the cut and paste quotes? This matter has already been explained Cerbie. You are embarrassing yourself.
Sheik Ibn Baaz explained it this way:
“We have to accept the Hadith in a way befitting Allah without Tashbih (comparison), Tamthil (likening Allah’s Attributes to those of His Creation) or Ta`til (denial of Allah’s Attributes). It does not necessarily mean that His Image (may He be Glorified) is like the image of human beings. Similarly, attributing a face, hand, fingers, feet, leg, anger, and the like attributes does not entail that Allah’s Attributes are like those of the human beings…We have to accept this in the way that the Messenger intended without Takyif (questioning the howness of Allah’s Attributes).”
So there you go.
Now, how is the same as your god having “regrets”? Does your god “regret” differently than humans? Don’t run away now. Answer the question and most of all…be specific! Your deflections to Islam will not save your god.
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“I’m sorry we just don’t have these pagan concepts in Islam. Now that we cleared that up, “
Yes, we cleared up that your concepts are imaginary and contrary to Islam. We all
Noticed how quick you were to change the topic…
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“Even the other interpretation, that Adam was created in Allah’s image, does not mean that Allah (swt) has two eyes, two ears, etc“
Gday britney, so nice of you to try and rescue stew from his drowning of lies and deceit.
Just for the record, I never said that Allah has two eyes, ears, etc, even though there are many Muslims (Paul Williams being one of them) who do believe Allah has literal parts.
The point is that the use is antheopomorphic, which is what we see in the bible aswell. Allah’s mercy has to be something similar to what we understand as mercy, otherwise you make language meaningless, which is what Stew did above.
But more than likely he will just repeat the same thing, like you, pretending like he has a point 😂😂
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Good day Cerbie. Having a barbie today?
Stew has done a good job of exposing your god’s weaknesses, which is why you have been desperately trying to deflect to alleged “anthropomorphism” in Islam. But you are still not answering the question (that seems to be typical): how is saying that your god has “regrets” the same as saying that Allah (swt) “sees” or “hears” or has a “Face”? Try to answer the question, Cerbie. I know, I know. You are a coward at heart and you realize that you are cornered, but mental gymnastics and vague answers only make the situation worse for you. So, try to finally make a point, instead of pretending like you did. 😂😂
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Not so fast little friend. Dropping and running isn’t a satisfactory answer.
First you deny anthropomorphisms. Then you allow them for names? But if such is the case, then Allah isn’t unique. Come to think of it, saying Allah is unique is an anthropomorphism aswell. You see, you’ve just made allah completely incomprehensible, which is the conclusion many an Islamic scholar has drawn.
I’ve read the Quran several times, which is why I reject it. Nonetheless, please explain how Allah is “one” without using an anthropomorphism?
I’ll be waiting. You simply have no logical basis to discus anything now. Your clear excuse of “well I just believe the Koran” won’t suffice for reasonable people
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“I’ve read the Quran several times, ”
Well that’s funny, because I have read the Bible, which is why I reject it, and so do all reasonable people.
Your “anthropomorphism” argument is a desperate attempt to save your god from being reduced to a mere pagan deity that had human limitations. Face it, Cerbie. Your god in the Bible is a hybrid deity pieced together from pagan mythology.
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@ Tony
It’s funny you mentioned the “tree of life” there is an interesting point in it when you look at the stories in the Quran and Bible
BIBLE
Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it. And the LORD God commanded him: “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; FOR IN THE DAY that you eat of it, you will surely DIE.” (Genesis 2: 15-17)
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat of any tree in the garden?’” The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’” You will NOT surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will BE OPENED and you will be like God, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL.” When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate it. (Genesis 3:1-6)
So, keeping with the biblical blasphemy, God lied and said if Adam(as) and Eve eat from the tree they will die. Satan said naw you guys won’t die you’ll just recognize good and evil. Which was true. So, God lied and Satan told the truth!
Let’s look at Islam’s version:
QURAN
I then said: “Adam, you and your wife stay here in the Garden for a little while, and eat from it carefree. But do not go near this tree, or you will misplace yourself and be among those who do wrong…” (2:23)
When I said to the angels: “Bow down before Adam.” They all bowed except Lucifer because he refused. Then I said: “Adam, this is an enemy to both you and your wife. Do not let him get you taken out of the garden, so that you are landed in exhaustion and misery. In the garden there is enough where you will never go hungry, be naked, suffer from thirst or the heat of the sun.”
But Satan whispered to him, saying: “Adam, would you like me to show you the Tree of Everlasting Life and a kingdom that will never decay?” And so as a result they both ate from it and their nakedness appeared before them, so they began to sow together leaves from the garden to cover themselves. Adam disobeyed his Lord and allowed himself to be seduced off the path. (20:116-121)
So in Islam God told the Truth that they would be kicked out of the garden if they ate the fruit and Satan lied that they would gain a kingdom and everlasting life. I’ll let you guys make of that what you will…
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It appears Cerbie’s god couldn’t change his lying ways! Not only was a he a liar before he came down as a man, he continued to lie as a man!
LOL, Christianity is an utterly bankrupt religion. Even it’s god has been compromised!
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“Hmm, go ahead and provide a single citation from a recognised Christian scholar to support this claim. Otherwise it’s simply another lie to addd to your already heavy burden list. You’re in trouble my friend.”
dancing monkey coco, in one stance “holy perfect pristine ” god, in other stance “tell me where my god is human like” yet you believe god can
1. sleep
2. feel hungry
3. forget
4. leave his powers
5. pray to another person
6. commanded to speak…what to say.
you believe that “consciousness” of your pagan god can HAVE FULL EXPERIENTIAL FEELINGS of these things lol
you do not see this as a defect on your god
now let me ask
your god CAN ACTUALISE THE whole LIST (1-6) WITHIN him, FAILURE TO DO SO WOULD MEAN PRIVATION. in other words, yhwh @ anytime can have GRAPHIC TEMPTATIONS ANY TIME, failure to do so would mean PRIVATION .
lol
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i am saying that your god is SOILED with unholiness from eternity past, because he have ACTUAL potential to actualise the GRAPHIC temptation every human experiences . UNHOLY UNHOLY UNHOLY UNHOLY .
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Are you on drugs or does Islam just make you incoherent?
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paulus pig,
yhwh have the POTENTIAL to actualise GRAPHIC temptations within his CONSCIOUSNESS?
his ONE CONSCIOUSNESS fully experienced “PORNOGRAPHICALL” thoughts.
now tell me, how is your porno god who had full EXPERIENTIAL experiences of TEMPTATIONS holy?
he is even today able to have those thoughts, if he does not ACTUALISE them, then that would be a PRIVATION . a privation means IMPERFECT.
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@ Paulus
Actually, you have deflected trying to attribute things to Islam because you can’t explain the Bible’s weak concept of God. Which EVEN IF we had this we don’t attribute weakness to Him. Your concept of God loses fights, makes mistakes and is scared of humanity overthrowing Him.
Next, you can claim to have read it (which I doubt because you need a lot of background to many surahs) but after a study was done they showed that English speakers comprehension rate of the Qur’an was extremely low due to translation it was about 5% I believe. But let’s move on:
In regards to the Adam hadith:
Because you don’t understand Arabic I’ll try to explain this in a way that makes sense. There are no capital letters in Arabic like in English so there are two ways you can read the pronoun of this:
God created Adam in His image – “His” referring to God
God created Adam in his image- “his” referring to Adam
I was referring to the second way which in my opinion is the stronger reading. However, reading Shakh Munnajid if you go with this reading he is saying the “image” is the same as what I’ve said. “But it does not mean that there is any resemblance or likeness.”
Remember it does not look like humans or is even the same thing like how the hands of a clock don’t look like human hands. etc. They only resemble in each other in name, like the “face” of a mountain. That is the name of a side of a mountain but it has the same name as our human “face”. So God created Adam in His “image” means the same thing.
In regards to Ibn Taymiyyah (rh):
“…where the words used may also be applied to created beings, in a limited manner. When these words are applied to Allaah, they carry a unique meaning,”
This is not being explained well, I’ll give an example one of God’s names is Al-Hakeem (Wisdom) a human can be Hakim(wise) but he cannot be AL Hakeem (THEE Wisdom itself). A LOT of people criticize Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) for this but he is commonly misunderstood in this regard he is simply saying what I’ve said, up top. The face of a mountain or hands of a clock. That is what they’re called and we don’t deny that is what they’re called but they only resemble us in name.
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“Your concept of God loses fights, makes mistakes and is scared of humanity overthrowing Him.”
Here’s the difference- you just fabricate lies based on your own whim, whereas I refute you using your own sources and/or scholars.
“I was referring to the second way which in my opinion is the stronger reading.“
Sure you were. You weren’t so accommodating about differing opinions when you made declarations about “what Islam believes” before being shown you were wrong. Ask Britney, I know why he believes from BT and it’s not what you believe. Will he be a man and confront you?
“A LOT of people criticize Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) for this but he is commonly misunderstood in this regard he is simply saying what I’ve said, up top. The face of a mountain or hands of a clock.“
Except he isn’t. He said that allah has an image. He says Adam was made in Allah’s image. You said he wasn’t. If Adam was made in Allah’s image than it follows that Adam has the same attributes but in a limited sense (which you deny). You contradict other Muslims. That’s because if a Muslim goes down your path you make Allah completely unknowable. He is one, but his oneness could mean anything. His attributes lose all meaning if they are not anthropomorphic explanations using human language. It’s very problematic indeed. In fact, when you say Allah will forgive you, what does that even mean if Allah’s forgiveness is only “similar in name” to what we believe forgiveness to be?
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” whereas I refute you using your own sources and/or scholars.”
ROFTL!!! We have seen you crash and burn with your Google searches and deceitful cut and paste quotes of Islamic scholars. Not very impressive, I’m afraid!
“Sure you were. You weren’t so accommodating about differing opinions when you made declarations about “what Islam believes” before being shown you were wrong. Ask Britney, I know why he believes from BT and it’s not what you believe. Will he be a man and confront you?”
“Confront” him? For what, Cerbie? The hadith about Adam’s “image” has been interpreted differently. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not an important issue in Islam, because it deals with matters of the unseen. Stew and I have given the same answer, which is that when saying that Allah (swt) has a “Face” or that He “sees”, we believe that He does BUT we do NOT say that it is the same as with humans. What we say is that we believe He has a Face and that He sees, but we don’t know how or in what way.
Now back to your god’s weaknesses. What does your Bible mean when it says that your god had “regrets” or that he came down to see the Tower of Babel? How do you explain that. Simply saying “well, it’s anthropromoprhism” does not answer the question. What does it mean?
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No, you just don’t seem to understand the concept.
Most Muslims make mistakes on this subject and I can’t speak on Paul Williams because I haven’t read what he said or talked to him. But He is correct if that’s what He said, the thing described is literal. It is LITERALLY a Hand, Face, Eyes etc. just like the “face” of a mountain is LITERALLY the “face of a mountain” or the “hands” on a clock are LITERALLY “the hands of a clock” they are NOT human hands or a human face they just happen to have the same name.
The language is not “meaningless” that is what the parts are called. As for abstract concepts His mercy is not like our mercy nor is His anger like our anger. He is the literal embodiment of Oneness or mercy. All His Names are hyperbolized forms but the Names are not attributes they are separate.
But all this irrelevant, aqeedah is too complex for a kafir. You can’t even understand 3 can never be 1, let alone true monotheism. Let’s walk before we can run.
I’ll make this simple for you, YOUR definition of God acknowledges that He makes mistakes and fears creation. Because you know this point cannot be defended for an All powerful being you’re trying to place me on the defensive. Very simple what does, the Lord being “deeply troubled” and “regretting” making mankind mean? It means He has weakness no matter which way you slice it, whether we take it in the weaker form or a hyperbolized form. Your concept of God is acknowledging it has weakness.
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@ Qb
Lol I promise I didn’t see your post until after I sent mine we both literally said the same “and what does this have to do with the BIble’s concept of God acknowledging His weakness?”
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Cerbie keeps avoiding the questions about his god, which is why he deflects to Allah’s Attributes. How is being “deeply troubled” the same or even similar as saying that Allah (swt) has a “Face” or other Attributes? Will Cerbie finally man up and answer? Time will tell…
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@qb
As a note, let’s not say His God because Ellah is everyone’s God. Just say his “concept”, or “definition” of God. Or “what He attributes to God”
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I will try!
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“aqeedah is too complex for a kafir.“
It didn’t take you long to show your radical hidden agenda 😂😂
“YOUR definition of God acknowledges that He makes mistakes and fears creation“
Except it doesn’t 😂😂. Maybe our aqeeedah is too complex for a muhammadan like you?
“Very simple what does, the Lord being “deeply troubled” and “regretting” making mankind mean? “
It means the biblical writers used anthropomorphic language to convey a point. It’s no more problematic than God “seeing” what I do or “listening” to my prayers. It’s no different to God “walking” in the garden with Adam. Get it yet, Muhammadan?
Look, I’m sorry that you’ve made allah completely absurd but you made that bed…
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@ Paulus
Oh no, it’s not radical, I just don’t want you to walk away not understanding the message. You are by all definitions a kaffir and if you died in this state today you would go to one of the lowest levels of Hellfire. Along with the unknown Biblical writers who attributed such weaknesses to God.
Saying:
The Lord REGRETTED that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was DEEPLY TROUBLED. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I REGRET that I have made them.” (Genesis 6 6:7)
or
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” (Genesis 11: 5-7)
Is blasphemy and unacceptable. speech in regards to God.
Your and my Lord is above these things that some unknown men who had no knowledge said about Him and who you are blindly following. Even if I use the antromorphic excuse God showed weakness whether we hyperbolize it or take it as is.
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Let’s face it. Cerbie worships a pagan god with bad eyesight and dementia. That’s the only reasonable explanation for why Yahweh had to come down to see the Tower of Babel and why he regretted creating mankind. Notice that Cerbie still has yet to explain how this “anthropomorphism” is the same as Allah’s Attributes.
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“It means the biblical writers used anthropomorphic language to convey a point. It’s no more problematic than God “seeing” what I do or “listening” to my prayers. It’s no different to God “walking” in the garden with Adam. Get it yet, Muhammadan?”
Lol, more vague answers? What was the point of the Biblical authors when they said that Yahweh has regrets? Stop beating around the bush and answer the question Cerbie!
Look, I’m sorry if you realized you’re cornered, but deflecting instead of answering doesn’t bode well for your evangelization. I mean of course, no one in their right mind will follow your absurd religion anyway… so answer the question crosstian.
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“I mean of course, no one in their right mind will follow your absurd religion anyway“
Says the kafir who said, “Allah said it. Argument over.” without providing any evidence. 😂😂😂
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So again, I guess Hud and Salih are Biblical prophets then? 😂😂😂😂
Oh you little infidel, when will you learn?
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The Lord REGRETTED that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was DEEPLY TROUBLED. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I REGRET that I have made them.” (Genesis 6 6:7)
here is something funny . william lane craig says that father produced two neutered persons so he can selfishly receive back and forth love from them, this would mean that if jesus produced another lover from himself, then yhwhs love would become even more perfect, but father in his selfishness produced just two neutered persons
father is deeply grieved, the only way he can be deeply grieved if their is someone else he can grieve with to make his grieving “perfect” this means all persons in the trinity were grieving with each other , so not only they throw love at each other but something contradictory “grieving”
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@ Paulus
Look at what you just said:
“God said it. Over”
Uhh…yea pretty much.
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Or you can imagine this scenario:
Cerbie’s God – I give you the gift of salvation if you believe in me.
Cerbie – OK, great! I believe in you wholeheartedly! So, can I go to heaven now, Lord?
Cerbie’s God – Well no, not yet.
Cerbie – …Why not?
Cerbie’s God – Well, you have to do demonstrate your faith. Do some good deeds.
Cerbie – But I thought you said salvation was a gift?
Cerbie’s God – It is.
Cerbie – So then I should just be able to go to heaven without having to do anything.
Cerbie’s God – …
Cerbie – …
(Lengthy awkward pause)
Cerbie’s God – OK, scratch that “gift” thing. You can get into heaven by having faith and then demonstrating it by good deeds.
Cerbie – …What a jip!
Cerbie’s God – (shrugs shoulders)…
The End…
😂😂😂😂
////
lol, this was gold!
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Hey, guys sorry to bring an old topic up but Paulus had scoffed at the idea that deeds are weighed on the Day of Judgement in Islam. He also made jokes about intentions and I just thought these verses were a little interesting:
Deeds are weighed
“Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed. (1 Samuel 2:3)
“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.” (Jeremiah 17:10)
He repays everyone for what they have done; he brings on them what their conduct deserves. (Job 34:11)
From the fruit of their lips people are filled with good things, and the work of their hands brings them reward. (Proverbs 12:14)
Intention
All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD. (Proverbs 16:2)
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart), (1 Kings 8:39)
There are more and if you go to Biblehub in the cross reference you can see them. But I just thought those verses were worth noting…
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there seems to be a debate between the jews on whether works takes precedent over faith . the debate exists because some authors of the hebrew bible do give the idea that deeds first, faith second. i am not making this up,
Altosackbuteer July 1, 2018
I will answer your question.
In Pauline Christianity, works are useless, even if one believes in God.
But Judaism is the opposite of Pauline Christianity. In Judaism, doing works is what it’s all about; faith can be irrelevant.
In other words, as long as a Jew continues to observe the Law and do works, whether he actually BELIEVES in God is UNimportant! He can be an atheist and still be in good standing, as long as he continues to do works.
How can this be? For the Apostle Paul was not wrong when he wrote, works without faith is dead.
It’s like this: Judaism holds that works do, in fact, CAUSE faith.
Imagine this: You’re a Jew who doesn’t believe in God. A rabbi persuades you to “do the mitzvot” — to do the works of the Law. You tell him, but I don’t believe that any God ever authored or commanded these works! The rabbi chuckles, and says, never mind that; just do the works anyway.
So you do them. And, naturally, a great conflict builds up in your mind. You, naturally, ask yourself, why am I doing this at all?? What is the point?
But you continue to do the works. A great tension builds up inside you. You then seek answers — WHY am I doing these inane things? This tension, the need to know WHY, brings the Jew to FAITH in God, for the works of the Law make no sense without God.
On Mr Sinai, when God gave the Law to the Children of Israel, they cried out, “Ya-asay v’nishmah!” “We will DO the commandments, and THEN listen to them.”
This is counter-intuitive. The natural human response would be, waitaminute!; before I actual DO these things, I first gotta know WHY I should do them.
But with the Children of Israel, it was just the opposite; first they did the works of the Law without understanding, confident that understanding would follow.
So there it is. TO the OT authors, DOING works was EVERYTHING. Actual faith was NOT important. Because actual faith was a CONSEQUENCE of doing works!
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@ Tony
I guess I can understand the reasoning because doing the act of worship could possibly inspire the person to faith but the problem is:
1. I’ve never seen it happen. For example, you may have that second generation of Muslims who watched what their parents did and never understand the why to praying, fasting, etc so they stop doing it.
2. That generation literally saw Allah part the sea so even though it was an atom’s worth of faith it still came first.
3. They said “We hear and disobey” so they understood what was required and rejected it.
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But, but, but, Stew that is the “Old” Testament!
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@ Qb
Good point. Well, what does Paul say?
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” (Romans 2:6)
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Deeds, deeds, deeds…All this stuff about deeds, and yet Cerbie is trying to criticize Islam for teaching judgement for deeds? 😂😂😂😂
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this guy is related to joel
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i tell you the truth, crosstians take gods holiness lightly and is only deceptive tactic to sell sinner(non-crosstian) the idea that your sins have been taken care off. “feel good and guilt free” they been taken to the wilderness bro….
our brother Faiz dropped this bomb :
The problem for Christians is that they maintain that their god does not allow “sin” in his “presence”. But no matter what he does to “wash” their sins away, they will remain sinners forever. Nothing will change. If an adulterer accepts Jesus as his savior, he is still an adulterer and the fact that he committed adultery in the past will not change. So, what ends up happening is that the Christian god will allow sin in his presence, despite the Christians’ insistence that he will not. Like I said, the Christian god is very confused.
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does joel or paulus pluck their eyes out after he does crosstian “dawah” ?
QUOTE :
14“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
so after you guys do your deeds to be seen by men, do you pluck your eyebrows or your eyes? christian women usually pluck their eyebrows LOL
QUOTE :
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’e 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
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There is something i wish to quote :
You ask how a God Who cannot be seen, can be seen. You imply that this means different persons of the godhead, that this points to the Trinity. The implication of your understanding is that at least two gods exist. Moreover, you have no way to identify Jesus as any part of the godhead.
Briefly, one knows that he has two different objects or ideas by the things that differentiate the one from the other. If you write of a being that has quality x, and, later, you write of a being that does not have quality x, even if the beings were never named, it is clear that two different beings are written about. They cannot be one.
When writing of the Christian Father and Son, you write that the former cannot be seen and the second can. Essentially, you have stated that you have two different beings with either two different qualities or two different abilities. These are two different gods.
end quote
to “scematicize” this,
x does not have ALL the properties of y
y consumes z
x doesn’t
x (god-man) is TRUMPED by y (father)
any two things with differences are TWO , not 1.
coco the pagan monkey admits that father is a dangerous and distant god.
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