As-salaam alaikum. Over at brother Paul Williams’ “BloggingTheology”, I am currently engaged in a discussion with a Christian apologist (and anti-Islamic bigot) named “madmanna” (I just call him “madman”, though). The topic is the Mosaic law and whether it is still in effect. Those Muslims who are familiar with Christian apologetics know that most of the time, Christians claim that they are no longer bound by the Mosaic law, since Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a “new covenant” which does not require strict adherence to the laws of the Tanakh. They also use this as a way to attack Islam for its alleged “barbaric” laws. However, when I noticed some Christians (first a Christian by the name of Ken Temple, and then “madman”) responding to a post brother Paul had made about cannibalism in the Bible, I thought it was a good time to bring up this issue. The Christians were saying that the cannibalism that is described in the Bible was a “prophecy of the future after the Israelites sinned with idolatry…” But when I pointed out that this severe threat was made because the Israelites did not follow God’s laws, and yet the Christians insist that the law was “abolished”, they denied this was the case (i.e. that the law was abolished). They claimed that only those laws which caused “enmity” between Jews and Gentiles (such as the dietary laws and the law of circumcision) were actually “abolished”. Naturally, this raised another question. If only these laws were abolished, then what about the law of stoning for adultery? Or killing homosexuals and witches? When I asked him to explain, madman surprisingly claimed these laws are STILL in effect! Yet anyone who peruses madman’s personal blog will find that it is full of criticisms of Islamic law, and yet all the while, madman believes that the liberal and secular society in which he lives (he lives in Germany) should kill adulterers and homosexuals because those Biblical laws are still in effect! Below is the discussion in the “Comments” section thus far:
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Circumcision also caused emnity between Jew and Gentile.
James abrrogated the law of circumcision as a universal condition of entering in to the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant and agreed with Paul on this.
Islam contradicts this.
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Madman, you are also lying. First of all, circumcision is a highly recommended sunna in Islam, but it is not required. Some schools do believe it is required, but most regard it as a recommended act, and not obligatory.
Second, like your buddy Kenny (who not surprisingly has run away), you need to answer the question I asked before. If only those laws which caused “enmity” between Jews and Gentiles were “abolished”, then what is the status of all the other laws, such as stoning for adultery. The warnings in Deuteronomy and Ezekiel stated that as long as the Israelites followed God’s laws, they were safe from His curses. Answer the question, and don’t run away.
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“(2) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Abraham did his circumcision with an adze at the age of eighty.” (Book #55, Hadith #575)
(3) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic region, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short.” (Book #72, Hadith #777)
(4) Narrated Abu Huraira : I heard the Prophet saying. “Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits.” (Book #72, Hadith #779)
Faiz you are the liar.
Hadiths are only hearsay anyway. Makes no difference to me whether or not Sharia commands circumcision for men. Just sad for women that your claimed prophet approved the practice for women, against the law of Moses:
(1) Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Book #41, Hadith #5251)
Deut 14 v 1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
” then what is the status of all the other laws, such as stoning for adultery.”
I believe they are unchanged. Stoning is not necessary. This was so the community could take part in the punishment.
Does this mean a secular government should be overthrown if they don’t implement these laws? Off topic.
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LOL, madman you stupid idiot! Do you think I give a crap about your opinions about what Islam teaches? It is a the majority view among Islamic scholars that circumcision is a highly recommended sunnah and not obligatory. Of course, circumcision has health benefits so it is always a good idea to get it done. And since it was done by all the prophets, it is better to do it. But again, it is not required. Get over it, stupid. Stop making a fool of yourself.
“I believe they are unchanged. Stoning is not necessary. This was so the community could take part in the punishment.
Does this mean a secular government should be overthrown if they don’t implement these laws? Off topic.”
ROFTL!! Do you know what “doublespeak” is, moron? One the one hand, you say the adultery law is “unchanged”, but then you say that stoning is not “necessary”! Well, which is it? Is it “unchanged” or unnecessary?
Thank you for exposing your hypocrisy. Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of hell. As I have said before, you idiots simply pay lip-service to the law of God. You pick and choose what is convenient and leave anything that is inconvenient. Your fake piety will not fool the educated.
The conclusion is that the excuse you idiots use that only those laws which caused “enmity” between Jews and Gentiles were “abolished” is complete garbage.
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You misunderstood me. I only meant it was not necessary as a particular method. Another deadly method of punishment would be ok.
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What difference does it make? What other “deadly method” would you suggest?
Ding, ding, ding! There you have it folks! A Christian has admitted that the capital punishment laws of the Bible are still in effect, though the “method” can be changed! So death for adultery, is still required by Christianity. So, why aren’t Christians clamoring for the adoption of Biblical law in western countries? Have they been subdued and de-fanged by secularism?
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” It is a the majority view among Islamic scholars that circumcision is a highly recommended sunnah and not obligatory. ”
You are just making up your own Islam now. Carry on the tradition. You are not the first and you won’t be the last. What happened to those unbreakable chains of transmission?
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And you are a moron who has no answers, so you just cling to your idiotic assumptions. So what else is new? LOL!!
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“So, why aren’t Christians clamoring for the adoption of Biblical law in western countries? Have they been subdued and de-fanged by secularism?”
Faiz you hypocrite. All you guys have to do is say “I divorce you” three times and jump in to bed with the next. Wife swapping is adultery. Secularism is the lesser of two evils.
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Bwahahaha, changing subjects are we? That usually happens when Christian clowns have nothing to respond with.
Secularist societies are notorious for their loose sexual mores. Fornication, adultery, homosexuality etc. are all allowed. As a Christian, you should be opposed to secularism, not for it. Even if it was the “lesser of two evils”, you are essentially admitting that you are supporting evil! Well done, madman!
I ask again. Why are your not clamoring for replacing secularism with Biblical law? Why are you such a hypocrite?
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Having sex slaves is also adulterous. Muslim men messing with little girls is a loose sexual more. Polygamy is also a way of committing adultery. Muslim men annulling marriage by recitation encourages adultery.
Secularism has fortunately resisted these virtues of Islam.
I can resist the bad parts of secularism peacefully by democratic means.
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LOL, what a complete moron!
You keep trying to change topics, idiot. Since you have already admitted that the Biblical laws are still in effect, except for the ones that cause “enmity” between Jews and Gentiles, then I am sure you are fully aware that killing and enslaving people is allowed by your Bible.
But back to the adultery law. Secularism encourages adultery, stupid. Get your head out of your rear-end. You can “resist”, you say? How’s than going for you? The last time I checked, western societies are becoming more secular, not less. The number of atheists is rising and Christianity is dying a slow death. Face it, madman. You are a hypocrite. You only pay lip-service to the laws of God. You don’t worship God. You worship secularism.
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Hey madman, since you admitted that the death penalty for adultery is still in effect, what about the one for homosexuality? Is that still in effect?
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What about witchcraft? Is that still a capital offense, madman?
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“what about the one for homosexuality? Is that still in effect?”
Yes. No doubt about that. We worship the God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
Witchcraft. That’s more tricky. I’m inclined to think it is not a crime under the new covenant. I’ve haven’t given it much thought up to now.
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WOW!!! Did I just read that? On what basis are you picking and choosing which law to follow? You keep proving over and over that you are nothing but a hypocrite.
What is so “tricky” about witchcraft? The Bible says it is a capital offense. On what basis are you saying that it is “not a crime” any more? Do you think that Jesus would be okay with practicing black magic?
If you believe that homosexuals should be killed, why aren’t you opposing the liberal laws in the western world? Do you protest like the Westboro Baptist church, holding up signs like “God hates fags”? Or how about “Kill all homosexuals”?
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The Quran and Bible Blog 
Hello, sorry for being off-topic for the purposes of this post but I thought you may be interested a lot in the following book by Dr. Sami Ameri titled “Hunting for the Word of God: the quest for the original text of the New Testament and the Qur’an in light of textual and historical criticism” http://www.aricr.org/books/hunting.pdf
Hope you find it useful and add it to your recommended reading list!
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Thanks! I will check it out.
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Pingback: Christian Fanatic “madman” Has Some Trouble With The Law of Moses – The Quran and Bible Blog
when a crosstian gets slapped silly:
“Many godly men had one wife (Adam, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Boaz, Job, etc) and those who had many wives had much heartache as a result of it.” —
I would argue that their heartaches were the result of other problems, not the multiple marriages. Also, if that’s the argument you want to use, then wouldn’t the high rate of divorce within the church be a fine argument against monogamy? Note that despite the common practice of polygyny in the Scriptures, there is not one divorce.
End quote
That was a hudookin moment from street fighter
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Well, Paul did say it was better not to get married! But that was really more due to the fact that he was convinced the end was coming soon.
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Yea I’ve kinda noticed Christians really are “loosey-goosey” when it comes to actually following Allah’s Laws. They say they believe in them but I’ve found very few who would be willing to put the OT into actual practice. For example during our Christians and divorce discussion a commentator had tried to take a moral high ground about the capital offense for adultery and apostasy in Islam as “evil” and then when I responded with references just the sound of crickets…
Commentator:
I know my religion quite well, thank you very much…
“We believe God’s mercy is why were are allowed into Heaven like Christians. God’s laws are so that we can live a happy and pure life worshipping Him.”
So killing apostates and adulterers leads to a happy and pure life? Do you feel happy and pure when you do these things?
Me:
You “know your religion well” but don’t know killing apostates and adulterers is in the OT?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+13&version=NKJV
http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-10.htm
Now before you go “that was the OT and we have the blood of Jesus now” the point is at some point God still approved of said laws (which are actually harsher than ours) and because you believe Jesus is god and fulfilled said law he too approved of it.
Still waiting for a reply.
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this whole nonsense about “jesus’ blood” replacing ot laws is refuted by jesus himself :
First, there are many things Jesus promised that have not been fulfilled, including the stars falling from the sky, and the Son of Man coming from the clouds following a worldwide tribulation that came close to exterminating all flesh. Pretty hard to miss that, so it hasn’t happened yet.
Second, such an interpretation puts Jesus in the ridiculous position of devoting his most famous and lengthy sermon to the importance of following the Law for just the next few months.
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that’s two hudoookins!
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“So killing apostates and adulterers leads to a happy and pure life? Do you feel happy and pure when you do these things?”
its interesting that the picture painted in deuteronomy is that obeying the laws of killing and rituals does LEAD to a happy life
yhwh promises reward for doing the rituals, killings, and nitty gritties.
plus the laws about killing and listening are to LEAD as a example to other people :
Observe them faithfully, for that will be proof of your wisdom and discernment to other peoples, who on hearing of all these laws will say, ‘Surely, that great nation is a wise and discerning people.’
no one on earth has laws like yhwhs :
Or what great nation has laws and rules as perfect as all this Teaching that I set before you this day?”
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Yeah, it’s pretty weird when they attempt to criticise Islamic law because a lot of it is similar to or magnified in harshness in the Bible. The big difference is we have contexts for when the law is applied.
Also as another note, this also kinda throws out the “no one can keep the Law” argument because we as a nation have no problem doing it.
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Only a week ago, as a training imam, you sinned by posting entertaining music. You failed at keeping your own law.
But your Islam is probably more western than Islamic…
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oh pathetic crosstian, when yhwh gave his “righteous” laws to the hebrews, weren’t their SINNERS amongst them?
did yhwh say to them, ” you must be SINLESS TO DO MY LAWS” ?
oh pathetic secularist crosstian, why do hate yhwhs “righteous ” laws so much ?
Or what great nation has laws and rules as perfect as all this Teaching that I set before you this day?”
EXACTLY , gods LAWS are above jesus. you guys REPLACED it with your pagan “saviour” and your pagan secularist RULERS who a pro LGBT
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Or I’m a human who accidentally showed a parody? Good thing God is Forgiving.
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LOL, don’t mind Cerbie. He has to nitpick on random, mundane things to distract from his inability to actually make sane and rational comments. Being overweight and unemployed tend to do that.
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EXACTLY, ALLAH DOESN’T NEED jesus to FORGIVE, WE humans, don’t NEED jesus to seek ALLAHS forgiveness
this is the message of ALL the prophets and the law.
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Accidentally Stew? You mean you accidentally knew about that haram video and then accidentally copy pasted it into the comments section to then accidentally click the submit button?
Hmm, I think you may have just sinned again.
Point is- no one can keep Torah. You can’t even obey the shariah. To be fair though, it’s highly ridiculous
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no one can keep torah? even the ones who kept it and were blessed by yhwh ? Why does belief in jesus make christians liars? now it is “no one can keep torah”
The thing is,when ppl were in REBELLION why did yhwh tell them to go back to practicing his instructions ? Why again and again he told them to go back ?
if one is FAR from god,why would god think “no one can keep my INSTRUCTIONS”
god thinks like a crosstian?
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you make a joke out of god you original sin stained crosstian
God gave difficult laws to easily corruptible creation, god had no choice but to commit suicide to put an end to his eternal “righteous” laws . in other words,your god didnt know what the hell he was doing.
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“Point is- no one can keep Torah.”
where did yhwh say that ? ot quote required.
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Yes, it was an accidental what do I need to lie to some stranger on the internet for who’ll never meet until the Day of Judgement to testify that you received the message that their only one God and chose to worship a prophet instead?
Very simple, didn’t hear the music because the instruments were very low and forgot.
And finally, the verses you keep avoiding regarding keeping God’s laws:
“For this commandment which I command you today is NOT too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may OBSERVE it.
Argument over.
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That text isn’t about ability. It’s about availability. Torah is revealed, not hidden. Read a commentary.
“The second point strongly insisted on here is the blessedness of possessing such a knowledge as the law gives. Deuteronomy 30:11 – Deuteronomy 30:14 present that thought in three ways. The revelation is not that of duties far beyond our capacity: ‘It is not too hard for thee.’ No doubt, complete conformity with it is beyond our powers, and entire, whole-hearted, and whole-souled love of God is not attained even by those who love Him most. Paul’s position that the law gives the knowledge of sin, just because it presents an impossible elevation in its ideal, is not opposed to the point of view of this context; for he is thinking of complete conformity as impossible, while it is thinking of real, though imperfect, obedience as within the reach of all men. No man can love as he ought; every man can love. It is blessed to have our obligations all gathered into such a commandment.“
You’ve assumed the text is about ability. It’s not. Ability is to be concluded from the entire corpus of Torah and the histories.
Argument over.
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I’m going to teach you a trick here. If someone can’t explain something simply they’re usually talking out of their rear ends. Please explain that back to me in laymen’s terms.
Here is the chapter within the complete context it’s clearly talking about ability. The Jews are given the Torah and God is telling them to keep it or they will be punished
http://biblehub.com/nasb/deuteronomy/30.htm
Here I’ll go even farther back
And you shall again OBEY the LORD, and OBSERVE ALL His commandments which I command you today. 9“Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, JUST AS He rejoiced over your fathers; 10if you OBEY the LORD your God to KEEP His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11“For this commandment which I command you today is NOT too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may OBSERVE it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may OBSERVE it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may OBSERVE it.
15“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to KEEP His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17“BUT if your heart turns away and you will NOT obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and eath, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
How much more context then 3 paragraphs do you want?
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“Ability is to be concluded from the entire corpus of Torah and the histories.”
did yhwh say that one can LOVE him with ALL his heart and all his soul ?
is one ABLE to ? for THOUSANDS of years before your pagan animal sacrifice, WAS anyone able to love yhwh with ALL his heart and all his soul?
yes or no ?
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What’s your trick? Dishonest handling of the bible?
Of course they were commanded to obey and of course there was consequences for obeying or not. But the specific portion of text you cited doesn’t say what you want it to say. It’s about availability.
Further, from the entire Torah and history of the nation, it’s abubdantly clear that the spin you put on the text is not correct. No one can obey the law perfectly. It’s precisely why the sacrificial system was put in place!!
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LOL, so Yahweh lied? Or did he change his mind? Wouldn’t be the first time right? 😉
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some how every one can slit throats of animals PERFECTLY ? OR YOUR god has thing with blood spilling? When your god watches created blood spilling, does he cool off? The entire hebrew sacrificial system brings i corruption like two yeArs of crosstianity. any time you sin,just take it out on animal,what is this nonsense ? what part of the DEED affects god or is the blood magical antedote ?
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And this is precisely why I don’t care much for Islamic context, when you clearly don’t offer the same courtesy to the bible
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crosstian meat worshipper, WHERE did yhwh say “you cant keep my laws” ?
you said “no one can..”
Where did yhwh say this ? And where did he say you have to be SINLESS before you are able to keep his laws?
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I dare you to find one verse in tanakh where yhwh speaks like a australian crosstian about his “righteous ” laws
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yhwh wasted his time saying that the LAW brings BLESSINGS and life when he KNEW that it only EXPOSES sin? thaTS WHAT THE fuction of yhwhs instructions are to tell you how dirty you are?
WHEN yhwh GAVE his laws, did he not know that THERE WERE SINNERS AMONG THE hebrews?
QUOTE :
Xianity is like a pinball game where there’s only two types of things in the gameboard: “Sin,” which earns you negative points, and “Communion” which brings your score back to zero. It is possible to earn a positive score, but only if you cheat. But in order to cheat, you have to be a god. If you don’t happen to be a god, forget it. Why would anyone in an arcade waste a quarter playing this silly game?
END QUOTE
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Where’s your proof from the text?
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“Wallahi this is what I feel like I’m talking to with this “bride, daughter in law and mother in law” shirk Shaytan has done:”
Stew- that is what you said about the haram video you shared. You can’t listen to the words without the music. It’s very loud.
Let’s be honest here- you’re a westerner. You probably do many things that are haram purely based on your culture without realising, listening to music being one of them. You’ve just got a kafir pulling you up on it now.
You form of Islam is a weird hybrid of westernism and Islam. Picking and choosing which parts to obey and which to “forget”
Since you believe Allah is holy, he won’t be able to simply forgive you without compromising his holiness. You know the remedy, right?
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Or I simply forgot and asked for forgiveness. I don’t believe most music is permissible (barring certain things such as nasheed) and I didn’t realize it was in the video. Are you claiming to know what’s in my heart?
Next, any good judge will tell you the Law applies on a case by case basis hence why if you sit and plan how to murder someone this gets you a bigger sentence than murdering someone in a fit of rage. It is unjust to ask someone to do something they don’t have the capacity to do. For example, if I told my daughter she has one day to learn the Latin dictionary and recite it to me backward or I’m going to beat her. That is unjust would you agree or disagree.
Even if I went with your sacrifice of Jesus for the sake of discussion, that means someone tried to create a loophole in the Law which is considered a bad thing by anyone. You attempted to circumvent the rules established.
God did not create everyone equal. He gave us disparities in wealth, knowledge, power etc and judges on an individual basis. This is a manifestation of His attributes an a Juge and being the Most Merciful.
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Cerbie is just being petty. He has nothing else to go on, so he clings to minor issues in a desperate bid to distract from his failures. 😂
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These people are disgusting hypocrites brother stew. they tell young children that all sins are the same and god is too “holy” to talk to . they will make God “holy” but at same time SIN from monday to sunday and telling each other “no one is perfect”
Notice brother he provide no text where God said one has to be SINLESS to obey “perfectly” his laws
they will say that one sin is too much for ALMIGHTY GOD WHO answers to no authority or rule .
God is too holy ….wash your self in blood and continue to sin….notice the SCHIZOPHRENIA brother stew? It clearly is schizophrenia
You cant tell me god is “too holy” when you said ALL YOUR future sins have ALL been cleared. how can you believe in”holy” god and at same time have the guts to say ALL future crimes have been cleared?
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Did you forget or did you not hear it? Your story is changing. Fact is, you can’t hear the words without the music. It’s haram.
And now you seem he’ll bent on pretending it’s not an issue.
Remember, you think following shariah is achievable. Youve proven it isn’t. You’re left in sin. And God can’t forgive with disregard for his holiness. You need the cross.
Islam is self refuting and impractical.
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what do you mean “gods holiness”
Your god became an UNHOLY body which was under the control of SINFUL temptations.
under the skirt of jesus,you are STILL IN your POLLUTED state. You have gotten away with murder (hate) adultery ( lust in heart) …..under jesus’ , you BOAST that ALL your future CRIMES have been CLEARED….
yhwh said that his guidance CHANGES lives. jesus , on the other hand leaves you DEPENDANt on a torture instrument.
wash your hands they are full of sacrificial blood.
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“Cerbie is just being petty.”
So it’s petty for a training imam to be promoting haram materials?
Your hypocrisy is showing…
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Lol, no its petty for a non-Muslim loser to be lecturing a Muslim on Islam and clinging to it like a dog with a bone. Bwahahaha!
Find any Christian ladies to talk out of divorcing their abusive husbands lately?
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You didn’t answer my question is is just to ask someone to do something that’s impossible?
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Also, you said God can’t forgive sin? You don’t think God can forgive at all?
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Yes God forgives sin. But not at the expense of his holiness as per islam
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Yes God forgives sin. But not at the expense of his holiness as per islam
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Yes
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Okay, so we agree God forgives sin. Now, what do you mean at the expense of holiness?
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See below
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“No one can obey the law perfectly. It’s precisely why the sacrificial system was put in place!!”
1. Sinners were present before yhwh gave his instructions/guidance (this would entail god would already know that it would be impossible to PERFECTLY obey instructions,but he STILL REQUIRES that people LISTEN and obey)
2.did yhwh say , “you cant obey the law perfectly thats why you have to SLIT throats ” ?
3.even sacrificial system requires
– israelite look after the animal
– give up animal to yhwh
4. There are penalties for sins like idolatry, adultery, murder….what animal sacrifice for breaking these rules,crosstian ?
5.from no one can obey the law to NO ONE CAN obey the law perfectly….you must have some kind of mental disorder
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What Tony is saying is the same thing I’m saying. Is it Just too ask someone to do something that’s impossible for at least 1000 years and then punish for not being able to accomplish the task?
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I’m surprised by this. As a Muslim you believe that all people are called to follow Allah and your prophet. However, you also believe strongly in predestination. So in your own religion Allah commands something to people unable to comply because they are not predestined to do so.
Augustine said it well…
“Command what you will and grant is what you command”.
The old covenant had provision for forgiveness of sin in the sacrificial system. This was a foreshadow of Christ.
Islam has the problem off Allah’s justice being incomplete. Which is a basic reason why it is inherently wrong. The god you believe in cannot be god by definition.
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1. See the way he is TRASHING “HOLY” guidance of torah ?
2.sacrificial system symbolise giving up for yhwb, sacrificial system NEVER SYMBOLISE yhwh becoming OBJECT of sacrifice
3. You dont give a damn about hebrew sacrificial system , since all you care about is eating and drinking HUMAN sacrifice
4. When did sacrificial system ever replace GUIDANCE on obedience and PENALTY ?
5. In exile , which jew was told to LOOK toward pagan HUMAN sacrifice??? why in exile , again and again yhwh stickler for his RULES RULES RULES AND RULES
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since when does JUSTICE mean murder of the divine being? when did it mean this in torah ? Think about this, god already can see himself PUNISHING non repentant sinners in the depths of hell, what reason you need to KILL god?
Your god punished himself, so what ? You still consciously sin, how is your sin tolerated now? If all sins are the same ,HOW is your sin tolerated now ? Where is the justice now? Where is the JUSTICE in believing all your present and future crimes have been cleared, where is the justice?
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And just so I can answer this point for anyone in the comments reading.
Just because God knows everything doesn’t mean He asked something impossible. The two premises are different. God knowing where your final destination is, does not mean your choice was taken away.
Allow me to stick with the daughter example. I give my daughter 2 choices, she can either watch cartoons or a documentary on wheat. Which one is she going to choose? The cartoons. Did I take my daughter’s choice away? No, she made her choice but I know her so well I know what she’ll pick.
Using the Latin dictionary analogy I asked you again. I give her the rule do your best to memorize this and take it to heart. She fails but honestly tried everything within her power to do it. She is not worthy of punishment because she’s a child and it’s expected she will fall short. I knew that from the moment she was created. So she turns back after trying as hard as she can and says: “Dad, I’m sorry I did my best.”
THAT right there is all I wanted to see. That effort was made. Out of my love and mercy, I tell her it’s okay Champ. Now let’s go get ice cream.
That, in a nutshell, is God’s knowledge, justice, and mercy. No one else is needed in the equation between you and Him. He created you without help, and He doesn’t need help to forgive you. God does not make rules to be a tyrant. He has no need to punish you and doesn’t gain anything from it. His rules are simply there to protect you from harm in this life that’s it. He does not forbid things unless there’s a harm in it.
Next, you and I both already met God before we came to Earth and agreed that we would only worship him. He is simply reminding you of the reason of you were created. So again this is justice. Using the daughter example, if I give my daughter multiple warnings if you do this I’m going to give you a whooping. She then disobeys me understanding what I’m telling her. I then still look for any reason not to give her a whooping and reminding her. But she still continued in disobedience, she is thus deserving of her punishment. She was unjust to herself not me.
People who go to Hell have NO good whatsoever in them. They went to Hell because they wrong either themselves, others or most importantly God.
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Two problems.
First, your god is not unique. He is no different to a human according to your comment above.
Second, that’s not predestination. What you described is omniscience. God knowing what will happen (omniscience) is different to God predestining it to happen.
It’s the reason why you say inshallah. Things will only come to pass if Allah wills it. You are only a Muslim if Allah wills its.
So you are left with the same problem you accuse me of. Personally, I have no issue with predestination. But I follow a religious system that is logical and makes sense of how God is holy and just and how he is also forgiving. You think Allah can just forgive like a human. But such a position makes the deity you follow false because by definition it cannot be god.
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LOL, your god is no different from the pagan gods who also required sacrifices in order to be sated.
How is your religion “logical”? I really laughed at that one! How is your god “holy” or “just” when “forgiveness” only comes from the spilling of blood…anyone’s blood? As long as someone pays, everyone is forgiven? How is that “logical”?
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Yes you’re right He is greater than the example I’m giving I’m just making it easy to understand with something you know.
Now in regards to how God move people towards their destination the best Quran verses
Understand that God is not ashamed to strike a metaphor from something even as small as a mosquito or whatever is over it. Because for the believers, when they hear them, they know that this is the Truth from their Lord; while those who are COMMITTED to disbelief say: “What does God mean by using these stupid metaphors?” He misguides many with them, and He guides many with them, BUT He only misguides those who are DISOBEDIENT and CORRUPT. Those who break their promise with God after the terms have been established. And cut off what God has ordered to remain bound together; causing chaos throughout the earth, because they are failures. (2:26-27)
Whoever God gives guidance to, is on the right path and whoever God misleads then they are the ultimate losers. I have created many demons and people who are destined for Hell. They have hearts, but they do not understand; they have eyes but they do not see; they have ears but they do not hear. They are like sheep, no, they’re worse, they are HEEDLESS. (7:178-179
God does not place a burden on a soul more than it can bear…” (2:286)
So some important points to note. God eases people to their destination but they make their choice to the path easiest for them to follow. He gives everyone warning and blessings that are enough for them to go to Heaven they simply have to make their choice to do so. However, if the person is defiant and arrogant God eases them towards Hell. I’ll give an example who we both agree this happened to the Pharaoh from Moses(as). Pharaoh was a man destined for Hell. God gave Him plenty of warning to stop him from what he was doing with Moses’s(as) signs. Pharaoh even knowing he was wrong but still continued and then increased in defiance even going as far as trying to kill Moses(as) and the rest of the believers.
God delivered Moses(as) and made the way clear for Pharaoh to meet his fate at the sea. God never did the Pharaoh injustice in any way, he merely guided him to his decreed destination. If the Pharaoh repented and asked for forgiveness God would have done so and changed his decree.
Narrated ‘Imran:
I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?” The Prophet said, “Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him TO HIS DESTINED PLACE FOR WHICH HE HAS BEEN CREATED.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 641)
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As a last point on God does not place a burden on a soul more than it can bear…” (2:286)
God did not ask anything that people are not capable of, they simply choose not to do it. Using the Pharaoh again it was not preposterous for him to stop killing babies he just didn’t want to so God opened up more opportunities for him to dig his hole deeper.
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Clearly you hold a position that isn’t traditional predestination. Do you accept that everything is written on the preserved tablet? If so, it is predestined. If it can change, then the will of Allah is subject to his creatures. Or, you have to admit that Allah has multiple wills, which makes a serious problem for tawheed.
Basically, the more we discuss this the less your Allah can be god. He is limited by his creatures. Islam is irrational.
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Hahahaha, brother Stew, the irrational dog of hell thinks that Islam is irrational! And this is a guy who thinks that God needs blood to be spilled in order for forgiveness to occur. And it can be anyone’s blood.
He can’t seem to understand that predestination does not mean there is no free will. Everything that is written on the preserved tablet is based on Allah’s will. Like you said, Allah (swt) drives people in the direction of either belief or disbelief, based on their actions.
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You can’t say that you’re being extremely disrespectful to God (Elah in Aramaic btw) this is something that has always been here. The Pharaoh was blocked from seeing the Truth because of His arrogance. Do you want to say that God didn’t block him from seeing the Truth?
Let me try this from a different perspective. God before creation starts “The Pharoh during My Prophet Moses’s(as) time will be a man of the Fire.” God knows this man at this point in history is someone who will end up in Fire and so it is decreed now. Like in the example, of giving my daughter 2 options the cartoon or the documentary on wheat. Before I gave her the choice, I knew which one she was going to pick. It’s like if before gave her the choice I told you she’s going to pick cartoons. That is similar to the Decree.
Speed up. Now it’s time for Pharaoh’s test. God gave him all the faculties and knowledge to pass his tests. God knowing the Pharaoh knows he will not make the choices even though he is able to. Again, my daughter in the example has the ability to pick the documentary on wheat, I even know she has the mental focus to watch it and enjoy it but she’s going to pick the cartoon.
The Pharaoh is given sign after sign which is enough for him to stop and change His ways. Remember he believed something was different about Moses’s(as). He now had a choice stop or keep going. He chooses to keep going. God then opens the path from his choice towards his destination. Now my daughter says: “I want to watch cartoons dad!” I then put candy and a bowl of cereal next to it to make her choice more appealing.
Pharaoh persists and more signs for him to know he’s wrong are shown and finally, the Children of Israel leave Egypt. The sea is split, the Children of Israel cross and Pharaoh is drowned thus putting him in the Fire through God’s Decree and his actions and choices. Ending my, metaphor my daughter looking at the candy, cereal and cartoon then goes and watches the cartoon.
God’s “Decree” was not subject to creation. All He did was make their choice more appealing to where they were going.
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It’s rather simple. If it is decreed to happen before creation, it cannot change. If it can’t change, then libertarian free will doesn’t exist, since libertarian free will dictates that humans have to have the actual ability to change the course of history.
If Allah knew pharaoh was going to have a hard heart before creation, and created him anyway, then by logical deduction pharaoh never actually had the *real* opportunity to do otherwise. It may appear so, and he actions may be genuinely his, but in the divine counsel he was always destined to do it. This has to be true otherwise god is subject to his creatures.
In the same way, Hid cannot just forgive unless his justice is met.
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How was Pharaoh’s choice taken? In the scenario above?
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As a quick add-on. Muslims don’t believe in libertarian free will. History doesn’t change based on humans actions God has already decreed it. It’s actually incorrect to say “free will” because “will” implies your affecting things when your not. A more accurate description is “free choice”. We make choices and this leads to our consequences decreed.
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Then we are back to my original point. The same objection you have to me applies equally to you. We probably have a very similar view on this. If destinys are decreed, then you need to provide a logical and moral account for Allah’s actions. Allah only forgives if it is decreed for him to forgive.
Further, you are stil left with the philosophical problem of Allah’s justice being compromised toward those he forgives. He cannot be god ergo
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How? You made a choice and it coincided with God’s decree. You’re stating it was impossible from the beginning. I’m stating it was possible and you are judged for what your intent was. The person who made bad choices is and will always be bad in their very nature. They have the ability to do good but they chose otherwise. There’s no such thing as absolute evil. It was not impossible for them to do good. Like the Pharaoh and Moses(as). It really is the perfect example. The choices the Pharaoh made were in accordance with God’s Decree, however, he is still responsible for his actions and choices and deserves punishment for it. THEORETICALLY, he could’ve turned around at anytime, his ability too choose was never taken from him. Same with taking Moses(as) in as a babby. The choice was never taken from him.
What it appears to me (and I could be wrong on this-this is just my thought) is you have a problem with God’s Decree. And believe He’s unjust for punishing people who made poor decisions despite the right ones being made obviously clear to them. Where our major difference is God doesn’t have to justify His Decisions to us. We will be the ones questioned not Him. He knows what’s actually in the heart, not you or I and He says He never misguides unless it was deserving on that person.
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Theoretically? Sorry, but what you’ve now proposed is that Allah’s will could be changed, theoretically. Think about the ramifications of that…
I appreciate what you are trying to say, and in reality we hold a very similar position, but you need to theoretically have humans with the ability to override Allah’s will. And it still leaves you with a god that’s justice is incomplete. Because theoretically, things can happen outside of Allah’s decrees.
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No, the choice leads to the Decree. Maybe it’s my wording which is making you say that. What I’m trying to say is Pharaoh’s choice was never taken and nothing prevented him from choosing another option.
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Is their choice decreed?
That will clarify things.
If yes, then it could never have been otherwise. You then need to explain how Allah is just.
If no, then humans can change Allah’s will. Which makes Allah not god.
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Also, late because I didn’t see the post. It was decreed Pharaoh would not believe. But Pharaoh still chose not to believe. His choice was never taken like in the example I gave with my daughter. Pharaoh still had the intent to disobey. We both agree on this. Where we disagree is the choice to obey was not difficult for Pharaoh and it was not something he believed was wrong to do so. He acknowledged the truth and chose to do something else. God is just by giving him warnings and repaying him back for his actions.
If God had known there was any good in them, He would’ve made them listen…(8:23)
Everyone has the capacity to follow the right path, they still choose not too. One of the main points of God sending revelation to Earth is to give good news and warning.
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One last point, you were correct in one aspect and I was wrong about theoretically they could’ve done something else, from Imaam Abu Jafar At-Tahawi (321 / 933) commenting:
God knows that “A” has the ability to do something and that he will do it. He, furthermore, rewards him when he does that act. He knows too that “B” can do it but will not do it, so He will punish him for not doing it. God punishes him because he does not do the things that he actually has the ability to do. God knows that in advance. Obviously, He does not punish anyone for not doing the things that they were not capable of performing, nor does He enjoin such things upon such people.
One could argue that this necessitates that the servant has the ability to change God’s knowledge because if God knows that he will not do something, but he has the ability to do something, then he has the ability to change what is in God’s knowledge. This is fallacious. The
response to this argument is that just because a man has power over an act, it does not mean that he produces a change in the knowledge of God. Those who claim such a change can only do so when the act is actually done. But when the act is actually done, God already knew that that act will be done, not that it would not be done. It is never the case that an act occurs which God “knew” would not happen. On the contrary, if it happens, God knew beforehand that it would happen. If it does not happen, God knew beforehand that it would not happen. As for us, we do not know if God knew about a thing until it happened. His knowledge corresponds to the actual event. It is inconceivable that things happen such as to change His knowledge. Whatever happens is what He knew beforehand. (Commentary on the Creed of At-Tahawi, pp. 215-6)
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The problem you have is that your scholars are avoiding the logical necessities of their position. If the decision is decreed, then they could never have done otherwise. It may seem “possible”, but in actuality, it wasn’t.
An example. Allah has decreed to forgive you for posting a haram video. Step back. He decreed that you actually post the video. Now, how do you reconcile Allah’s justice?
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That incident God is more or less testing you. But anyways, you’re forgetting neither you nor I know the Decree so you can’t argue choice was taken so it’s okay to not believe or sin. You don’t know the Decree until after the event has occurred. As far as we’re concerned were making the choice we want. Like what I said to Tony if we’re at a crossroad and we can go left or right and we go right, their’s no magical force compelling us to do so. It just happens to be within the Decree. Yes, He Decreed the evil would happen but the person still wanted to commit the evil. The same thing applies to revelation:
This is nothing but a Reminder to the realms. For whoever among you all WANTS to walk straight. But you will do nothing unless God WANTS it so, the Lord of the realms… (81:27-29)
We as creation do not know what is written, so we choose according to what we ourselves want. So we can’t argue “Oh well it was decreed for me to sin and not believe” because you didn’t know that until after the event happened. You were walking around making your choices freely.
Your entire argument is intercession somehow fixes the issue you have with God’s Decree when in reality it doesn’t. I’ve really tried to think how and you have 2 main problems:
1. What about before Jesus? Which leads you to our current discussion.
2. All our conversation would lead to is God willed for the person not to believe in Jesus and you end up in the same position you have a problem with.
Intercession has little bearing on this Decree discussion. God needs no one to forgive. His God’s justice is based on our intent and circumstances. BUT He does not burden a soul with more than it can bear. What He asked EVERY person has the capacity to follow.
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I’m not sure what you’re saying in that last comment.
I agree that it appears to us that no barrier is in place. But I’m not interested in our perception.
You seem to be avoiding discussing the theological and philosophical ramifications of your doctrine of God
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I have no problem. The Bible talks about election. God chooses his people.
But he can forgive them because he reconciles his divine justice and love.
Allah has no such ability. He cannot be god by definition
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brother stew, some questions
1. yhwh said that he creates good and evil
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
1. this would mean that the CHOICE to do the murder had to be created before it existed. this would mean the movement to do the murder had to be created before it existed. every murder that takes place TOMORROW will have to be brought into existence by God Himself.
from this point of view, why would a god KILL himself for what he brought into existence? god made the evil, why would god CREATE his death? why would justice DEMAND the CREATED death of a divine being ? God here is the ultimate boss of everything and has full POWER and control OVER everything including the MURDERS which will take place tomorrow.
from an islamic perspective, any MOVEMENT , any choice ARE all willed by ALLAH , right? we have to believe that our FREEDOM to do x, y and z is ALL created by ALLAH, right? no leaf moves unless it be the WILL of Allah, so in other words our freedom to choose is not really “controlled freedom” ?
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@ Tony
Ehhh… its similar to Islam, Allah obviously wills evil but He never directly attributes to Himself,
“Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the Dawn, from the evil of what He’s created,” (113:1-2)
I don’t know if you saw the earlier part of the conversation. “Free will” is the wrong description of what we have. We have “free choice” which I think is where the confusion lies. Just because Allah has written everything down doesn’t mean He asked us to do something we’re incapable of. Let’s say we’re at a fork in the road and we go right. There was no force stopping us from going to the left or forcing us to go right we went the direction we wanted to go. It just so happened Allah wrote all ready for us to go down that path as well.
Paulus and I are disagreeing if Allah asks us to do something impossible. Christianity from what I gather’s position is it’s impossible and Jesus somehow fixes that (which being neutral I can’t see how as
1. What about before Jesus?
2. All it would do is Allah willed for the person not to believe in Jesus and you end up in the same position we’re currently talking about)
Islam’s position is Allah doesn’t ask us to do something impossible we knowingly chose to do differently even though this matches up with God’s Decree and that’s why we’re punished for what we intended to do.
For example, if you ever saw Final Destination 2 there’s a scene where a guy wants to kill himself so he can “die on his own terms” skip to 1:58
As you can see if Allah doesn’t wish for someone to die they won’t. The man, however, would be punished because he had the intent to kill himself. His choice was not taken from him, he wanted to do what he was doing it just wasn’t written for him yet. Now the same way with Revelation:
So say to them: “I am not asking for any reward for this, but anyone who WANTS to, should take the path to their Lord, and put your trust in the Living One who never dies, and glorify His praise, because He knows all the sins of His servants.” (25:57-58)
This is nothing but a Reminder to the realms. For whoever among you all WANTS to walk straight. But you will do nothing unless God WANTS it so, the Lord of the realms… (81:27-29)
We as creation do not know what is written, so we choose according to what we ourselves want. So we can’t argue “Oh well it was decreed for me to sin and not believe” because you didn’t know that until after the event happened. You were walking around making your choices.
If anybody is really interested in the topic, this book does pretty good breaking down the Decree. Pg.11 he start’s getting into the meat.
Click to access Qadar.pdf
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“Paulus and I are disagreeing if Allah asks us to do something impossible.“
Kinda. God has always commanded his people to follow him. He is holy and commands that his creatures be holy. If he does not demand such, he is not god by definition.
The difference is that our God made provision for sinfulness. This allows him to be just and forgiving at the same time. His character is not compromised.
Your god didn’t. He just forgives without regard for his holiness or justice. This compromises his character. He is not god by definition
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i will reply assuming the crosstian belief in “damaged nature”
“He is holy and commands that his creatures be holy.”
how is that possible if god made everyone born in sin? what christians are saying is that god not only made everyone born in sin, but allowed satan to tempt them, making it absolutely difficult for an ALREADY CORRUPTED creation TO BE holy
so how can one be “holy ” ?
”
If he does not demand such, he is not god by definition.”
but how can god demand holiness from an EASILY corrupted creature which is TEMPTED by satan and his forces? your god is unfair .
“The difference is that our God made provision for sinfulness. This allows him to be just and forgiving at the same time. His character is not compromised.”
god creates easily corruptible creatures. remember, it was gods WILL to bring into existence EVERY action.
people are “born in sin” because GOD CREATED THEM “BORN IN SIN”
people did not CHOOSE TO BE “BORN IN SIN”
so how did a god providing himself as a “sacrifice” not compromise his character? he is helping the cause of CORRUPTION.
1. he makes people “born in sin”
2. then he LETS THEM GET AWAY with their sins by hiding under BELIEF that he was MURDERED for sins.
the hebrews DID their filthy sins and GOT AWAY with it because they BELIEVED they were ritually killing yhwh as they cut the necks of animals
this is called CORRUPTION
“Your god didn’t. He just forgives without regard for his holiness or justice. This compromises his character. He is not god by definition”
EXPLAIN why sovereign, ALL powerful , all controlling, all knowing and ALMIGHTY cannot forgive WHOM He wills and PUNISH whom He wills whenever He wants to ?
HOW IS GODS HOLINESS LOL AFFECTED if HE FORGIVES without KILLING himself or an ANIMAL ?
how? WHERE IS IT WRITTEN THAT HOLINESS AND JUSTICE MEANS THE RITUAL KILLING OF AN OMNIPOTENT GOD?
where does it mean that a REPENTFUL SINNER needs to BE PUNISHED IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL JUST BECAUSE OF 1 SIN ?
GOD CANNOT DESTROY SIN WITHOUT DESTROYING himself? why have you crosstians made SIN MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD?
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the pagan crosstian wrote :
The old covenant had provision for forgiveness of sin in the sacrificial system. This was a foreshadow of Christ.
/////////////
your pagan god is an unjust god who does not love justice. he is criminal just like you.
the jews KILLED thousands of animals to foreshadow the murder of yhwh? so what were they repenting for?
your god let them get away with filthy sins because of future murder of your god? this is JUSTICE? this is CORRUPTION. this is not divine, this is evil .
what CONSIDERATION was there for the victim of sacrifice? you burning and harming an animal because your DEEDS aren’t actually EFFECTING salvation, but your BELIEFS in a FUTURE murder/human sacrifice, where was the animal rights? where is the justice?
your entire religion requires CUTTING of ANIMAL necks, not because it does anything but because it “foreshadow” murder of a pagan god.
but it seems to me that torah always places doing GOOD above sacrificial system, why is that?
where did yhwh say that one has to be SINLESS before he …begin to do what is right… ?
quote :
And, if one is unrighteous, he is to cease his ways. He is to make restitution for his wrongdoing. He is to begin to do what is right. And, when he does this, he will live: “None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live”
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There cannot be true justice in christianity because the father in the triune being would always have to cover his face with jesus’ blood and the sinner after he continues to sin will remind the father about the blood of jesus which will act like a coolant for the father. This means triune being is hiding behind BLOOD mask every time crosstian sins. i mean lets be honest , how did jesus’ blood unrape, unmurder ,unsinful thoughts ? by the “justice” of pagan triune god, everyone should have been put in hell the moment they were born. tell me crosstians, how does the shedding of jesus, clear the filthy sins from the fathers mind? you are only TOLERATED because of BLEEDING flesh god, but then that means father NEEDS someone to BLEED and without this bleeding pagan god, repentful sinners will go to bell,which means jesus CORRUPTS THE JUSTICE OF GOD.
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Where do you get the weird idea that forgiveness of sins means retraction of sins? I’m pretty sure not even Islam believes that.
Try not to fabricate lies for the deen. It doesn’t help your cause
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you see the problem with these frosstians? BRING islam into it when your gods CORRUPT justice is put under scrutiny. lets DISCUSS why the “just god” you worship is REALLY PARTNEr in crime with jesus FOR TRANSFERRING sins, punishing himself like SELF ABUSER to let GUILTY CRIMINALS like you CELEBRATE that your GUILT (ALL FUTURE, PRESENT AND PAST GUILT ) has been taken away .
your god is FILTHY CORRUPT.
if he were REALLY “just god” in the crosstian SENSE, then he FOUND leeway /CORRUPTION THROUGH the “sacrificial system” which means he is a HYPOCRITE and unjust god , and he LIED about his “holiness”
your gods “justice” was ALWAYS corrupt , since he knew that you would CELEBRATE his MURDER and @ the same time BELIEVE ALL your crimes have BEEN PUNISHED ON SOMEONE ELSE, so right from the beginning god had a CORRUPT PLAN IN MIND
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God doesn’t need anything. He could choose, rightfully, to send everyone to hell. But he chose to provide a sacrificial system to allow forgiveness to take place. That’s very gracious.
This is why Allah is not god. By simply forgiving, Allah conpromises his justice and holiness. He is not god ergo
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lol, . your god said “do not murder” yet he NEEDED to provoke his KILLERS to PIN him to the cross. your god is a “just” god, so it is PART of this gods NATURE to PUNISH himself, so yes, your god DID need SOMETHING. he has MANY needs. NO, your god CANNOT choose, since EVEN IF he sends PEOPLE to hell, his “righteous nature” ENTAILS that he PUNISH himself “no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of innocent” your god NEEDS a Bloody hiding because of his NATURE.
MY ENTIRE POINT WAS THAT the
1. jesus
2. the TRANSFERAL of sins
HAS RELEASED THE CRIMINAL AND ALLOWED HIM TO LIVE A BLISSFUL LIFE IN HEAVEN
your gods sacrifcial system is a way to ALLOW CORRUPTION AND SIN TO CONTINUE.
your gods “justice system” is really a CORRUPT SYSTEM, since your god would know that NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU “REPENT” you CAN NEVER DO it, ergo YOU DESERVE HELL FROM THE GET GO.
next time don’t talk about “holy ” and “just god” when you BELIEVE that all your FUTURE sins were TAKEN AWAY from you and BEATEN on someone else, your god PLANNED ALL of this and he is PARTNER in crime AGAINST his own JUSTICE.
if yhwh was a just god, then ALL YOU crosstians should have been CREATED in hell!
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dear pagan crosstian
is CRIMINAL who does not REPENT same like guilty who does REPENT ?
JUSTICE REQUIRES that God be merciful to those who turn to Him sincerely. i mean think about it you blind crosstian. if we assume that humans are “born in sin” and SEE nothing but SIN, SIN SIN, SIN SIN and @ the SAME time TEMPTED BY SATAN and then we see that the person TURNS TO GOD sincerely with GUILTY FACE and remorse and BEGS GOD TO FORGIVE, then JUSTICE ENTAIL God forgive without ANY BLEEDING god who was shed. you have no authority over GOD . If God is just, then it makes sense he has to be merciful to those who turn to Him, if he BANGS ALL SINS IN ONE BOX, then god TREATED THE REPENTFUL SINNER SAME AS ONE WHO DIDN’T REPENT. your pagan religion puts hitler IN THE SAME boat as one who stole bag of chips.
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“By simply forgiving, Allah conpromises his justice and holiness.”
Assuming that paying the price for someone else is justice in the first place which is obviously preposterous…talking about logical problems, this is one for you right here, your sacrificial system doesn’t solve the problem of justice that you keep talking about…
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We’re referring to the same God anyways…
God is not obliged to do anything He forgives and punishes however He pleases. He sends the message and the people have the choice to accept or not. God then judges each person’s case individually because we were not created the same.
I’ll simplify this whole discussion for you. I don’t know if you’re a young Earther or not, but let’s hypothetically say we go either way. That means according to Christians we’ve had a “proper relationship” with God at max 33% of human’s existence on Earth (Even though we’ve more than likely been 100,000+ which really brings it less than 2%) The main issue I with Christianity and Judaism is;
1. Before God sent Jesus what happened to people?
2. What about other nations besides Israel? All of them went Hell in the Americas, Europe and Asia? They wouldn’t have even had the ”
blood sacrifice” system Christians are fond of claiming.
You keep acting like intercession is going to fix your issue with the Decree. The only difference between what you and I are saying is where the choice of people lie in is. Do you believe in God(Islam) or do you believe in Jesus(Christianity)? Your issue with God’s Decree doesn’t get magically fixed due to intercession.
If Jesus died for all sins as you’re stating then my lack of belief in him being God’s child he should have died for mine then. Of course, you would say no you have to believe. I’m stating you have always had to believe in God and Jesus isn’t needed in the equation.
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“God is not obliged to do anything He forgives and punishes however He pleases.“
This is the problem. You repeat the mantra without explanation. How does Allah forgive if he is just? What happens to his justice when he forgives?
Now, I see you are shifting the topic again. Im saying that the true God, not Allah of Islam, reconciles his justice and forgiveness through sacrifice. In the old covenant and the new. This is why muhammad is contradictory to the former prophets.
So, to answer your question, people before Christ were saved by the grace of God. God allowed them to have their sins forgiven through sacrifice. This is consistent with the new covenant, except now, there was a “once for all” sacrifice that God did on our behalf through Christ. It’s glorious!! As for other nations, there is a difference of opinion because scripture is silent on that topic.
Islam, however, has a doctrine of god that produces irreconcilable problems and by definition Allah cannot be god.
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” reconciles his justice and forgiveness through sacrifice. ”
CORRUPTION , CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION. CRIMINALS SINS HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED AWAY = CORRUPTION. CRIMINAL IS STILL IN HIS POLLUTED AND CORRUPT NATURE= yhwh ALLOWED LEEWAY OF CORRUPTION. sacrificial system ALLOWS ONE TO CONTINUE TO BE CORRUPT SINCE ACCORDING TO CROSSTIANITY god CREATED EVERYONE “BORN IN SIN” AND MADE EVERYONES DAMAGED ORIGINAL SIN STAINED NATURE. CORRUPTION. jesus’ MURDER/sacrificice ALLOWS DAMAGED NATURE TO GET AWAY WITH MORE CRIMES AND LIVE GUILT FREE LIFE SINCE WHEN THE HEBREW CUT THE NECK OF THE ANIMAL, HE WOULD CELEBRATE THAT HIS SINS WERE TAKEN AWAY . THE ENTIRE CROSSTIAN SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM TAKES AWAY THE CROSSTIAN GUILT= CORRUPTION. CORRUPTION. THERE IS NO REPENTANCE IN CROSSTIANITY SINCE “HOLY spirit” is a LIE AND CROSSTIAN CONTINUES TO SIN IN HEART AND MIND . christians STILL CONTINUE TO SIN. christians still LIE for jesus.
there can never be FORGIVENESS in christianity since the only thing god does is PUNISH himself and the father ALWAYS remains distant and distinct person which ONLY TOLERATES humans BECAUSE of jesus’ MURDER. this is CORRUPTION. the father is ALLOWING people to get away with sins because of jesus. this is CORRUPTION.
forgiveness in christianity is defined as
the PUNISHMENT of divine being (not EVERY person in trinity ) to ALLOW criminals to continue to sin.
christians STILL sin and they BELIEVE that ALL their future SINS have been TAKEN AWAY since they think they are GUARANTEED heaven . this means that the ENTIRE sacrificial system is a CORRUPT system .
forgiveness in thier religion means
BEAT SOMEONE ELSE UP so you don’t get punished and live happy life in heaven
THIS IS CORRUPTION
your god is not a “holy god” he is a LIAR.
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As a reformed thinker, I believe Jesus died for the sins of the elect just FYI.
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@ Paulus
To begin, Tony is correct when God forgives, He forgives the sin. The sin is then turned into a good deed because the person repented.
Next, I think you misunderstood my question. There are more nations in the world than Israel. I need you to think bigger than just them.
1. What did God do with other nations? Even if I go with the “blood sacrifice” system (which Jews don’t believe in btw) Every nation in the world didn’t do this. What happened to native American nations? African nations? European nations? Asian nations? Are you saying ALL these people went to Hell for a system that wasn’t even in place for their nation?
2. ” people before Christ were saved by the grace of God”
DING!DING! DING! You’re starting to get Islam’s position and that’s what I’ve been trying to explain to you.
What I’m saying is this has never changed for ALL nations and people. Now in regards to His justice, this is manifest on the Day of Judgement, through each individual and their personal circumstances. He settles all the disputes between everyone fairly.
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Is that what they teach you at imam school? To only quote part of someone’s response and then interpret it through the Islamic lense? I repost for honesty…
“So, to answer your question, people before Christ were saved by the grace of God. God allowed them to have their sins forgiven through sacrifice. This is consistent with the new covenant, except now, there was a “once for all” sacrifice that God did on our behalf through Christ. It’s glorious!!”
I answered your other question. There is a variety of opunion on other nations outside of covenant.
You’re also still dodging your philosophical dilemma. If God changes a sin into a good deed, then God’s justice is meaningless. Islam can not reconcile the justice and grace of God. It’s impossible without the sacrificial system (which the Jews most definitely did believe and practice)
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Sigh. I thought we had a breakthrough.
God’s justice is not meaningless. He manifests His Justice by judging between the Creation. If someone, for example, oppressed another they are called to account for it on the Day of Judgement. If someone cheated another in a business deal they two parties are called to account.
Why would a sin not be turned into a good deed if someone was repentant? That happens to a variety of people even in the Bible.
“There is a variety of opinion’s on other nation outside of the Covenant.”
I’d love to hear them. Your entire argument is a “sacrificial system” is a magical thing that fixes your issues with God. Other nations simply didn’t use this are they all going to Hell?
Finally if I prove the “sacrificial system” doesn’t exist what will happen in this conversation?
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No, my argument is that the justice of God and the forgiveness of God can only be satisfied by the sacrificial system. See the difference? How it effects humans is another discussion entirely, one you seem intent on pursuing rather than discuss your theology.
You see, if God simply forgives, as per Islam, then his holiness or justice is compromised. For, by definition, God being just necessitates that ALL sin be punished. If it is not, then God is not completely just. Swapping sin to a good deed is precisely why your doctrine of god is erroneous. By definition Allah is not god.
Now, other nations. We both agree that no one deserves the grace of God, correct? So, theoretically, God is completely justified to send all people to hell. If God makes provision to save some (through the sacrifice of Christ), then that is a demonstration of his grace, not a compromise of his justice. If God chose the Israelites as his covenant people, then he has done other nations no wrong. To say otherwise dictates that those people deserved the grace of God. Which I don’t think you would believe.
What we do know is false is the Islamic concept that every nation has apparently had a prophet. Pray tell, who was the prophet to the Australian Aborigines? 😂😂
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” If God changes a sin into a good deed, then God’s justice is meaningless”
SINCE your sins are STILL in your gods MIND, why aren’t you in hell? the murder of jesus has CORRUPTED your god, jesus is your gods COOLANT and you are ONLY tolerated because of corrupt sacrificial system.
since you believe your sins have been TAKEN AWAY you bloody HYPOCRITE, tell me why can’t god CHANGE the sin into something good?
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“You see, if God simply forgives, as per Islam, then his holiness or justice is compromised. For, by definition, God being just necessitates that ALL sin be punished. If it is not, then God is not completely just”
God forgives and is merciful and nothing, no sacrificial system, no deeds, no killing of jesus , no THOUSANDS of death of flesh god can reach his mercy and kindness. why does JUSTICE MEAN the MURDER OF DIVINE BEING ?
but you will say the flesh DIED, so the point is that gods ABILITY TO BE MERCYFUL is always part of Him, yet the FLESH of jesus is CREATED . you want to put the flesh of jesus NEAR the MERCY of God?
it is from this perspective why God does not NEED to transfer sins and BEAT up CREATED finite flesh.
your god is COMPROMISING his holiness by CREATING A corrupt system
tell me something , does god ALWAYS need a HOST TO PUNISH to PUNISH sins? if yes, why isn’t jesus STILL IN HELL?
why isn’t jesus (host which has sins PUMPED INTO him) burning in hell?
that jesus has been SAVED from PUNISHMENT Means your gods justice has been compromised since the SINS require a HOST TO damn in hell . sins NEED to be punished, but jesus is saved LOL
jesus gets SAVED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION AND YOU continue to sin I.E CORRUPT SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM
no sin that you did WAS UN DONE BY jesus, your sins are STILL IN THE MIND OF THE FATHER, YET YOU ARE TOLERATED because of CHEAP sacrifice.
CORRUPTION CORRUPTION CORRUPTION
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So this “compromise” of justice and forgiveness as you say existed among one people? You said I think these people deserve God’s grace. Yes, that is the right of creation to be given a chance at His mercy and not be punished as long as they worship Him. Are you seriously trying to argue that 99% of mankind went to Hell for a system God never revealed to them and then say God did not wrong them?
We are ALL the children of Adam. Your entire premise has been that because God forgives sin and judges between His creation He is now unjust? However, you don’t find it unjust to send one system to one people and punish the rest forever because they never had knowledge of said system?
Also, why would you think it’s impossible for God to send prophets to other nations? Are you seriously laughing that God would deliver the message to worship Him alone to other nations?
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i quote : if God simply forgives, as per Islam, then his holiness or justice is compromised. For, by definition, God being just necessitates that ALL sin be punished
….
why is it that JUST God MUST..must….must PUNISH ALL sins ? if he (God) PUNISHES himself, the sin isn’t even punished, the DOER of sin just has to believe that his sins were TRANSFERRED. how is that JUST?
If God were to punish people, He would destroy them, isn’t that the reason we call Him “merciful” ?
If he punishes himself, he simply did a USELESS act because
he didn’t burn eternally in hell
sin still exists
the father is tolerating humans because of punishing the son, so the fathers justice has been compromised.
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jesus dying for sins is like me NAILING my FOOT to the floor because of your disobedience to your father , does that make sense?
QUOTE :
Imagine a wealthy and selfless replacement debtor (RD) who offers to pay what a destitute debtor owes. The RD could conceivably offer to supply both the money and the guilt. The creditor would have no trouble accepting the money, as long as the money were legally obtained. Money, after all, is abstract: the value attached to a hundred dollar bill has nothing to do with any qualitative superiority of the bill over a mere one dollar bill. The value of money is fixed in abstraction. But would the creditor accept the RD’s display of guilt on behalf of the poor debtor? The moral value of guilt, unlike the value of money, is fixed by the context in which the guilt is expressed. Imagine a hero who after saving twenty children from a burning building responds to her own heroism with a heart-aching display of guilt. Since guilt would be a misplaced emotion under these circumstances, the guilt would have no moral value. On the contrary this “guilt” would be evidence of a disturbed mind. The moral value of guilt, like any emotion, depends on the circumstances under which it’s displayed.
The primary condition of the moral value of guilt is that the person who displays it must be the same person who owes it. To test this, imagine the RD producing a fine torrent of guilt, complete with tearful eyes and a shame-faced apology, all on behalf of the real debtor, the one who entered into a contract to return a sum of money, who shook hands with the creditor, taking on a personal as well as a legal responsibility. What value could the creditor place on this display of guilt, even if it appeared genuine and heartfelt, so long as it issued, as it were, from the wrong heart? The reason the RD’s guilt would be morally worthless is that guilt is the recognition of one’s own wrongdoing. A thousand other people could be well aware of the debtor’s fault, but only the debtor’s own sorrowful self-acknowledgement would be properly called “guilt.” The notion of stand-in guilt is incoherent. Such guilt could at best be a simulation, at worst a fraud, a bogus, superficial display.
Likewise the value of punishment, again unlike monetary value, depends fundamentally on the identity of the punishment’s recipient. A replacement convict might offer to undergo the criminal’s punishment, and might succeed in producing genuine suffering. But this suffering would have no moral value, because the fundamental point of punishment is to pay back to the criminal what she is owed. This is the element of retaliation at the heart of all punishment, even of the sort that may serve other functions, such as rehabilitation, vindication of the law or the appeasement of a watchful deity. Retaliation is central to many Christian theories of the atonement. Instead of repaying sinners the harm we have caused with our disobedience, a substitute is produced who offers to accept our ‘sin debt,’ ‘bear our guilt,’ and fulfil our responsibility with his own life. Jesus’ death was God’s payback for our sin, and that’s why the atonement took the form of a violent execution: the misery our sin causes is returned to the sin bearer. Even granting that Jesus was innocent, produced genuine suffering, and died, there is still the problem of the uselessness of his whole endeavour. What is the moral value of a replacement punishment, inflicted not on the offender but on someone who has nothing to do with the crime and who is in fact guiltless? Again, the notion of substitutive punishment is incoherent because punishment, even as defined by many Christian theories of the atonement, involves repayment, which means returning to the offender what is owed her. The “re” in “repayment” and “retaliation” refers to the aiming of punishment towards the offender, the one to whom punishment is owed. Hence the concept of substitutive retaliation is incoherent.
/////////////////////////////////////////
yes, yhwhs “JUSTICE” and “holiness” HAS BEEN COMPROMISED. yhwh is not god. yhwh is CORRUPT like the humans
the father and jesus TEAMED up to ALLOW corruption in the fathers JUSTICE system .
jesus’ DYING is useless, only the GUILTY person who done the crime MUST be PUNISHED and if “yhwh” is JUST all sinners SHOULD BE burning in hell or yhwh SHOULD BE burning in the depths of hell and frying
jesus putting on a display of GUILT is USELESS FROM MORAL perspective, yet yhwh the CORRUPT god LET it pass, which means that yhwhs love for jesus WEAKENED yhwh and ALLOWED corruption .
everytime the crosstian hides under jesus’ SKIRT and covers fathers face WITH BLOOD of jesus, meaning the father is tolerating sinful christian because of bloody go between, yhwh is ALLOWING CORRUPTION TO continue.
a christian thinks that ALL his sins have been CLEARED because of BELIEF . this is THE FILTHIEST CORRUPTION IN “justice” of yhwh
they have made a MOCKERY of yhwhs JUSTICE. if yhwh was truly just ALL christians SHOULD BE BURNING in hell right now. jesus is yhwhs COOL ANT . the COOLANT HAS CORRUPTED yhwh.
i find it funny these christian SINNERS who continue to sin tell muslims that they worship a “just and holy ” god BULLSH$T!
lies. complete and utter lies.
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“Assuming that paying the price for someone else is justice in the first place which is obviously preposterous…talking about logical problems, this is one for you right here, your sacrificial system doesn’t solve the problem of justice that you keep talking about…”
its not only about transferring sins and punishing someone else, i think the idea “we all deserve hell” makes no sense .
so everyone deserves hell because everyone is born with “damaged nature”
+ this “damaged nature” is a problem because it has no answer to satanic temptations . we know this is right because the crosstian does not see a distinction between a REPENTING believer and a non- repenting kafir, “all deserve hell,” say the crosstians.
so if god were to punish everyone in hell because “we all deserve hell” how is god just ?
i think if one can show the belief “we all deserve hell” is nonsensical , then jesus’ self abusing suicide mission (nt jesus) gets flushed down the toilet .
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@ tony
I need you to elaborate more because no one gets into Jannah except by Allah’s mercy. We corrupt the good nature that Allah has put inside of us which is why were punished:
(I swear) on the conscience and what balanced it, ˹by˺ inspiring it to understand what is evil and what is good. They’ve succeeded, who work to purify it, and have failed if they corrupt it. (97:7-10)
I will ease you toward the easiest way. So remind, in case the reminder will help them. Anyone who fears something greater will take heed. But the most wicked and unfortunate will avoid it. Who throw themselves into the Greatest Fire, which they will then neither die nor live. (87:8-13)
Really the fundamental differences are:
1. Who to have faith in?
A. Christianity- Jesus will take care of everything if you worship him
B. Islam- You believe in God, monotheism and what God Sent down
2. Which way the odds are stacked for you
A. Christianity- Against you. He created you corrupt and punishes you for that corruption. God doesn’t care what you do and makes laws that are impossible to follow.
B. Islam- For you. He created you pure and wants you to maintain it. He makes it as easy as possible and doesn’t give more than what you were capable of. You throw yourself into the Hellfire.
So we have similar beliefs regarding how people get to Jannah but Christians refuse to worship Allah directly because they believe He’s without mercy and is only there to punish.
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“2. Which way the odds are stacked for you
A. Christianity- Against you. He created you corrupt and punishes you for that corruption. God doesn’t care what you do and makes laws that are impossible to follow.”
this is what i am trying to say ,
if god knows that human being is born with “damaged born in sin nature” and he does not make distinction between kafir who does not repent and repenting servant because “we all deserve hell”
how is he just? so it doesn’t matter if a jew in israel repented and tried to fight of satanic temptations , according to the crosstian “we all deserve hell”
it gets even worse
according to evangelists, they will enter a pure place like heaven even though they are UNDESERVING . so that seems to BREAK justice two times.
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” Yes, that is the right of creation to be given a chance at His mercy and not be punished as long as they worship Him. Are you seriously trying to argue that 99% of mankind went to Hell for a system God never revealed to them and then say God did not wrong them?”
yes, in the christian system , even the ignorant who had no messenger from the ALmighty “deserve hell” and “God did not wrong them” because He is “FAIR and impartial and gave them what they DESERVE ”
justice have two meanings
1. being fair and impartial
2. punishment for a crime
god sends people to hell WHO had no messenger sent to them. god makes no distinction between one who repents and one who does not,” all deserve hell”
even though christians deserve hell because they continue to sin, god , OUTSIDE of his justice , PUTS them in heaven.
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” If it is not, then God is not completely just”
i am trying to understand what the crosstian is saying when he says “god is not completely just”
does that mean he thinks god is ALWAYS just (always PUNISHING ?????)
these crosstians need to define their words.
if god is “completely just” and his OMNISCIENCE knows that kafir paulus will always sin, then paulus should be on the receiving end of “completely just”
i wonder if islam even agrees that GOD is “completely just”
i am sure the scholars say ALLAH IS PERFECTLY JUST , which would not mean “completely just” , right?
is there a distinction ?
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@ tony
Oh, okay I understand what you’re saying now. Yeah, how Christians view Allah punishing would be unjust because the people had no knowledge and weren’t warned.
Also, I remembered that even in this department the concept of Allah in Islam is fairer and just because remember when Adam(as) was born we all stood before Allah and promised to worship Him… and we forgot. So Allah could be right in punishing us now but then He sent Prophets to remind AND still judges each individual according to their capacity.
Also, I would like to point out Allah is perfect and complete in His justice. Justice is not punishing idk why everyone keeps saying that. Justice is the concept of establishing what is right between people. Punishment MIGHT be a by-product of this. But for example, remember Dawood(as), the angels in disguise and the sheep. He wasn’t chastised by Allah for not punishing one side. He(as) was chastised for not listening to the other side before making his ruling for the “business partner” to return the sheep. Nobody needed to be “punished” in the case it was a matter of did this person take sheep from the other person or not? If yes he needs to give them back if no the man needs to let it go. Nothing to do with punishment.
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